Discussion:
What do we actually know about Muhammad? - or the brilliance of Patricia Crone.
(too old to reply)
Robert Houghton
2006-10-11 13:51:46 UTC
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The title of this article is the title of an essay by the brilliant Patricia
Crone published on the opendemocracy website
(opendemocracy.net/faith-europe_islam/mohammed_3866.jsp). Here is an
extract;

"It is difficult not to suspect that the tradition places the prophet's
career in Mecca [which was unknown prior to the rise of Islam] for the same
reason that it insists that he was illiterate: the only way he could have
acquired his knowledge of all the things that God had previously told the
Jews and the Christians was by revelation from God himself. Mecca was virgin
territory; it had neither Jewish nor Christian communities.

"The suspicion that the location is doctrinally inspired is reinforced by
the fact that the Qur'an describes the polytheist opponents as
agriculturalists who cultivated wheat, grapes, olives, and date palms.
Wheat, grapes and olives are the three staples of the Mediterranean; date
palms take us southwards, but Mecca was not suitable for any kind of
agriculture, and one could not possibly have produced olives there.

"In addition, the Qur'an twice describes its opponents as living in the site
of a vanished nation, that is to say a town destroyed by God for its sins.
There were many such ruined sites in northwest Arabia. The prophet
frequently tells his opponents to consider their significance and on one
occasion remarks, with reference to the remains of Lot's people, that "you
pass by them in the morning and in the evening". This takes us to somewhere
in the Dead Sea region. Respect for the traditional account has prevailed to
such an extent among modern historians that the first two points have passed
unnoticed until quite recently, while the third has been ignored. The
exegetes said that the Quraysh passed by Lot's remains on their annual
journeys to Syria, but the only way in which one can pass by a place in the
morning and the evening is evidently by living somewhere in the vicinity."

Devastating clarity, isn't it?
a***@yahoo.com
2006-10-13 12:27:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Houghton
"The suspicion that the location is doctrinally inspired is reinforced by
the fact that the Qur'an describes the polytheist opponents as
agriculturalists who cultivated wheat, grapes, olives, and date palms.
Wheat, grapes and olives are the three staples of the Mediterranean; date
palms take us southwards, but Mecca was not suitable for any kind of
agriculture, and one could not possibly have produced olives there.
Interesting that something could be so devastating considering that the
Meccans, according to the Quran, were not agriculturalists primarily,
but TRADERS. In Surah Quraysh, Allah speaks about their trade-routes
in the summer and winter to the North and South, to places such as
Syria and Yemen. It was the people of Medina who dealt in farming, and
dates are produced all the time in Saudi Arabia.

As far as cultivation, the Quran does not declare any of the Meccans
growing the above crops. What it states is that the growth of these
various produce testify to the immaculate power and wisdom of their
Creator.
a***@yahoo.com
2006-10-17 02:19:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Houghton
Wheat, grapes and olives are the three staples of the Mediterranean; date
palms take us southwards, but Mecca was not suitable for any kind of
agriculture, and one could not possibly have produced olives there.
Let me also not to fail to mention:

You would wonder how the Meccans could be so ignorant of grapes as
well, considering that they indulged in wine-drinking all the time.
Did the wine just fall out of the sky for them? And I am quite
astonished that the Meccans would be unfamiliar with wheat, considering
they ate bread. Did the bread just magically fall into their hands?

Or how about the saying in English:

"I work day and night."

But I guess when the Quran says, "you pass by these towns day and
night", it was obviously implying the 'literal' nature of their
travelling, just as in English when I state teh above,. All this,
despite the fact that I go home at night, eat dinner, and go to sleep
and do not really work all day and night.

And this is what they call devastating?
Robert
2006-11-12 11:37:33 UTC
Permalink
Here is the heart of Patricia Crone's clear demonstration that Mecca
was not the background to Muhammad's activities as related by Islamic
tradition:

"The suspicion that the location is doctrinally inspired is reinforced
by
the fact that the Qur'an describes the polytheist opponents as
agriculturalists who cultivated wheat, grapes, olives, and date palms.
Wheat, grapes and olives are the three staples of the Mediterranean;
date
palms take us southwards, but Mecca was not suitable for any kind of
agriculture, and one could not possibly have produced olives there.

The Muslim contributors who have responded to my posting all evade the
simple force of this. As I have said Islam damages the mind and moral
sense of at least some Muslims, thank God not all. The Muslim responses
were smoke screens of illogic.
Zuiko Azumazi
2006-11-13 23:17:45 UTC
Permalink
"Robert" <***@f2s.com> wrote in message news:***@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

<snip> ...
Post by Robert
Here is the heart of Patricia Crone's clear demonstration that Mecca
was not the background to Muhammad's activities as related by Islamic
<snip> ...

Comment:-
But didn't Patricia Crone also say in the self-same article:

"We shall never be able to do without the literary sources, of course, and
the chances are that most of what the tradition tells us about the prophet's
life is more or less correct in some sense or other."

which directly contradicts your misleading suggestion about "Islamic
tradition" above.
Post by Robert
The Muslim contributors who have responded to my posting all evade the
simple force of this.
<snip> ...

Comment:-
As Patricia Crone also categorically states:

"But no historical interpretation succeeds unless the details, the context
and the perspectives are right."

which thoroughly rebuts your fallacious argument, since your artfully
selected quote didn't comply with her essential imperative.

Why shouldn't Muslims evade obvious intellectual exploitation by
unscrupulous commentators in SRI or elsewhere for that matter?

But subscribers can discover all that for themselves by visiting this link
and reading her short article in full:-

http://www.opendemocracy.net/faith-europe_islam/mohammed_3866.jsp

--
Peace
--
The most perfidious manner of injuring a cause is to vindicate it
intentionally with fallacious arguments. [Friedrich Nietzsche]

Zuiko Azumazi
***@gmail.com
Count 1
2006-10-13 12:36:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Houghton
Devastating clarity, isn't it?
Not really. History is often manipulated by the present. However if you're
interested in reading more about Mohammed Mr. Robert Spencer - the creator
and admin of www.jihadwatch.org - has a new book out which also deals with
Mohammed's history.

It's available through Amazon.
Anjum
2006-10-14 03:32:12 UTC
Permalink
X-No-Archive: Yes
History is often manipulated by the present. However if you're interested in reading more about Mohammed Mr. Robert Spencer - the creator and admin of www.jihadwatch.org - has a new book out which also deals with Mohammed's history.
=========================================================

Which will most likely be "manipulated".

For those who wish to read the Prophet's biography that is spiritually
uplifting and a masterpiece in English, I highly recommend Martin
Ling's "Muhammad -- his life based on the earliest sources". It
partially inspired G F Haddad who was a Christian to recognize the
truth that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) presented and become a Muslim
(http://members.aol.com/askgive/stories/fouad1.htm and also
http://www.livingislam.org/o/igfh_e.html)

I also find Martin Ling's "A Return to the Spirit : Questions and
Answers" to be illuminating. The chapter in this book that deals with
the apparent contradictions between some major religions is very
interesting.
Count 1
2006-10-17 02:34:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anjum
X-No-Archive: Yes
Post by Count 1
History is often manipulated by the present. However if you're
interested in reading more about Mohammed Mr. Robert Spencer - the creator
and admin of www.jihadwatch.org - has a new book out which also deals with
Mohammed's history.
Post by Anjum
=========================================================
Which will most likely be "manipulated".
Yes, it absolutely will be highly manipulated. It is well known what Robert
Spencer's biases will be, in fact the complete title of the book speaks to
this; "The Truth About Mohammed: Founder of the World's Most Intolerant
Religion".

When I say history is often manipulated by the present I perhaps didn't go
far enough. History is unavoidably manipulated by the present. It is
impossible for anyone to write about history in a completely objective
manner as everyone is a product - to some degree - of their culture.
Post by Anjum
For those who wish to read the Prophet's biography that is spiritually
uplifting and a masterpiece in English, I highly recommend Martin
Ling's "Muhammad -- his life based on the earliest sources".
Thank you very much. I'll look into getting this book as well.
s***@hotmail.com
2006-10-23 17:00:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Count 1
Thank you very much.
You are still ignoring and avoiding the real issue here which are your
insults directed at the Prophet
(SAWS).

Therefore I ask you again - will you not apologize here for the insults
you have made against the Prophet (SAWS)? It is a simple and direct
question which, for us, requires an answer from you.

I shall continue to ask you this Insha-allah for as long as you
continue to ignore the question or avoid it.

Your silence about this matter is most interesting - and I'm sure we'll
all draw our own conclusions from it.

Muslims would be well advised to ignore you given your insults against
the Prophet (SAWS) and your insults against Islam. Such insults are a
serious matter for us.
Count 1
2006-11-02 09:19:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@hotmail.com
Therefore I ask you again - will you not apologize here for the insults
you have made against the Prophet?
No - I will not.


It is a simple and direct
Post by s***@hotmail.com
question which, for us, requires an answer from you.
Then you have your answer. Would it be too much now for you to post on topic
material? This forum is not 'soc.religion.count1'.
Post by s***@hotmail.com
I shall continue to ask you this Insha-allah for as long as you
continue to ignore the question or avoid it.
I have never ignored or avoided the question. I have consistently said I
will never apologize for anything I may have said about Mohammed.

I will - at every opportunity - express my deep regrets that you - or
anyone - was offended by anything I may have said about Mohammed. I am
truly, deeply, unequivocally sorry you were offended.

Quran; Yunus - Chapter 10; Surahs 108 -109.

"Say: O people! indeed there has come to you the truth from your Lord,
therefore whoever goes aright, he goes aright only for the good of his own
soul, and whoever goes astray, he goes astray only to the detriment of it,
and I am not a custodian over you.

"And follow what is revealed to you and be patient till Allah should give
judgment, and He is the best of the judges.

Quran; Al E-Imran - Chapter 3; Surah 79.

"It is not (possible) for any human being unto whom Allah had given the
Scripture and wisdom and the prophethood that he should afterwards have said
unto mankind: Be slaves of me instead of Allah; but (what he said was): Be
ye faithful servants of the Lord by virtue of your constant teaching of the
Scripture and of your constant study thereof.

I'll leave you to ponder upon the meaning of this, and reflect on the
appropriateness of passing judgement on me since Allah has instructed you
not to, and Allah has told you that you should not be a slave to Mohammed.
s***@hotmail.com
2006-11-06 23:24:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Count 1
No - I will not.
So, you will not apologize for insulting the Prophet (SAWS). That says
enough.
Post by Count 1
Then you have your answer. Would it be too much now for you to
post on topic material?
Why should we reply to or debate with someone who has not only insulted
the Prophet (SAWS) and Islam but who refuses to apologize?

I do believe Shaykh ul-islaam ibn Taymiyyah had something to say about
such people. I believe it was in a work called al-Sarim al-Maslool ala
Shatim al-Rasool.

Your views are known - we can learn nothing from you; your opinions do
not matter to us at all. Muslims who revere the Prophet (SAWS) - and
all should - can therefore and should ignore you. You have been
politely invited to Islam, and declined. Therefore there is nothing
further to debate with you.

You are being hypocritical in making offensive remarks on one forum and
then coming here and pretending to be polite, for yes, we are deeply
offended by both your remarks and your attitude and your deceit.
Count 1
2006-11-10 01:12:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@hotmail.com
Post by Count 1
No - I will not.
So, you will not apologize for insulting the Prophet (SAWS).
It would be helpful if we could agree on what constitutes an insult. You
have never outlined what you consider to be an insulting comment. Being
someone who doesn't believe Mohammed received revelation it has behooved me
to explain what I suspect was happening with Mohammed. My conclusion is he
had some kind of epilepsy, and suffered from auditory and visual
hallucinations he thought were 'revelations'. Lacking medical knowledge to
explain his condition he simply found the most logical explanation for what
he was experiencing.

Same goes for Ezekiel (although that could have been an alien space ship),
Noah, Moses, and anyone else who thought god talked to them.

I suspect that later on after his epiliptic period subsided, he simply made
things up as he went along. By that time he was the leader of a growing
nation, and perpetuating a belief that he was a prophet served not only his
but all his follower's purposes too. So this is not a judgement, I can fully
understand why he would have - for purely altruistic purposes - realized
that it was better to continue the belief.
Post by s***@hotmail.com
Why should we reply to or debate with someone who has not only insulted
the Prophet (SAWS) and Islam but who refuses to apologize?
Hasn't stopped you yet.
Post by s***@hotmail.com
I do believe Shaykh ul-islaam ibn Taymiyyah
Who is just one man expressing his opinion
Post by s***@hotmail.com
Your views are known - we can learn nothing from you; (...) and should
ignore you.

Feel free to.


You have been
Post by s***@hotmail.com
politely invited to Islam, and declined. Therefore there is nothing
further to debate with you.
I'm not aware we were having a debate. And you still haven't told me why an
invitation to Islam is worthy of mention.
Post by s***@hotmail.com
You are being hypocritical in making offensive remarks on one forum and
then coming here and pretending to be polite, for yes, we are deeply
offended by both your remarks and your attitude and your deceit.
I am always polite, unless someone is not polite to me first. And in no way
do I engage in hypocriscy. My message remains exactly the same no matter the
forum, the only thing which may change - and I accept such requirements - is
the post must adhere to the rules of the forum.

This forum's first rule is posts must be relevant to Islam.

This forum is not for idle chatter and personal attacks. I'm uncertain why
the moderators are allowing your posts in this thread through - since they
have nothing to do with Islam and everything - it seems - to do with me.

You can raise the Islamic content of your reply if your kind enough to
elaborate on why an invitation to Islam is important to you or on why you
interpret my conclusion about Mohammed as an insult.
Imran Razi
2006-11-10 04:07:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Count 1
I suspect that later on after his epiliptic period subsided, he simply made
things up as he went along.
why you
interpret my conclusion about Mohammed as an insult.
You just claimed the Rasool (saws) was deceitful. Under what system of
ethics or rationality is that not an insult?
You're free to believe what you want of course, but let's use a little
common sense here.
Count 1
2006-11-12 11:29:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Imran Razi
You just claimed the Rasool (saws) was deceitful.
Deceitful is such a harsh word. Considering the circumstances I think
'pragmatic' is a better word.
Imran Razi
2006-11-19 21:27:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Count 1
Post by Imran Razi
You just claimed the Rasool (saws) was deceitful.
Deceitful is such a harsh word. Considering the circumstances I think
'pragmatic' is a better word.
Pragmatic or not, you claimed he was deceitful, and I'll ask again how
that is not an insult.

Worse, you offer no support or evidence for your prejudices. We're
still waiting for a little of that common sense I mentioned.

Remind me again why anyone should bother responding to your posts?
z***@yahoo.com
2006-11-12 11:33:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Imran Razi
You just claimed the Rasool (saws) was deceitful. Under what system of
ethics or rationality is that not an insult?
You're free to believe what you want of course, but let's use a little
common sense here.
He mentions a series of prophets from
other religions in the same way.
It seems his remarks are more a reflection of his atheism
than a particular opinion about Muhammed.

But really, hasn't this vendetta gone far enough?

Zev
s***@hotmail.com
2006-10-14 03:33:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Count 1
Not really. History is often manipulated by the present. However if you're
interested in reading more about Mohammed Mr. Robert Spencer - the creator
and admin of www.jihadwatch.org -
We are not interested in what you - someone who has insulted the
Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) - have to say, nor are we interested in what
that pro zionist organisation has to say.

Will you apologize here - as brother Ibn Myatt has asked - for the
insults you have made against the Prophet (SAWS)?

I refer you to comments made about another post on SRI about you -

"I would suggest that no Muslim should reply to you, here, on the Net
or elsewhere, until as brother ibn Myatt says you make a public apology
for having insulted the Prophet (SAWS) for we do take such insults
seriously."
a***@yahoo.com
2006-10-17 02:15:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Count 1
However if you're
interested
The answer is no, until you issue here a personal apology for the
insults you have made against the Prophet Muhammad (saw).

Will you now issue such an apology for the grievous insults you have
made against the Prophet (saw) and against Islam?
Zuiko Azumazi
2006-11-10 01:57:14 UTC
Permalink
Count 1" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:Wx7Xg.122829$***@pd7urf3no...

<snip> ...
Post by Count 1
Post by Robert Houghton
Devastating clarity, isn't it?
Not really. History is often manipulated by the present. However if you're
interested in reading more about Mohammed Mr. Robert Spencer - the creator
and admin of www.jihadwatch.org - has a new book out which also deals with
Mohammed's history.
<snip> ...

Comment:-
As an observation, based on the resulting reactions in SRI, I was wondering
how many subscribers actually studied Patricia Crone's article- "What do we
actually know about Mohammed?" - in full. Here's the link:

http://www.opendemocracy.net/faith-europe_islam/mohammed_3866.jsp

Extract:-
We shall never be able to do without the literary sources, of course, and
the chances are that most of what the tradition tells us about the prophet's
life is more or less correct in some sense or other. But no historical
interpretation succeeds unless the details, the context and the perspectives
are right. We shall never know as much as we would like to (when do we?),
but Islamicists have every reason to feel optimistic that many of the gaps
in our current knowledge will be filled in the years ahead.

End extract.

What do mature subscribers make of this summary? Doesn't this extract
confute the "devastating clarity" claim?

Putting this to one side, don't we need to draw the distinction between
"history" written by professional historians like Patricia Crone and
outright anti-Islamic propaganda (revisionism [sic]) written by political
hacks like Robert Spencer, Andrew Bostom, et al?

If one is really interested in seriously studying history of this period
then I would recommend they also read "Byzantium and the Early Islamic
Conquests" by Walter E. Kaegi - University of Chicago. For example, compare
these excerpts from this book

http://assets.cambridge.org/052148/4553/excerpt/0521484553_excerpt.pdf

with the previous ill-conceived claims made by some strident anti-Muslim
commentators in SRI - generally mimicked from "Dhimmi/Jihad Watch" - under
the guise of "historical scholarship"!

--
Peace
--
The discovery of truth is prevented more effectively not by the false
appearance of things present and which mislead into error, not directly by
weakness of the reasoning powers, but by preconceived opinion, by
rejudice. - Schopenhauer

Zuiko Azumazi
***@gmail.com
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