Pictures in a Mosque

[David / Amicus]

Last week I watched a tv show "30 Days" about a Christian fellow who
went to live in a Muslim environment for a month.

There was a scene in a mosque that on the qibla wall had a picture
hanging of the Great Mosque in Mecca. Is that really ok? On another
wall in the prayer room was a picture of some fellow in beard and turban
- I don't know who he was.

Also in the show were a couple of short animated spots showing the
relationship between the three Abrahamic faiths. Both Moses and Jesus
were portrayed but I was surprised to see Muhammad portrayed also albeit
animated.

[Altway]

Post by David / Amicus
There was a scene in a mosque that on the qibla wall had a picture

hanging of the Great Mosque in Mecca. Is that really ok? On another
wall in the prayer room was a picture of some fellow in beard and turban
- I don't know who he was.

Comment:-

This seems to be a step on the slippery path towards idolatry,
though, perhaps, not already idolatry.

Hamid S. Aziz

[CooolBreeeze]

... There was a scene in a mosque that on the qibla wall had a picture
hanging of the Great Mosque in Mecca. Is that really ok? On another
wall in the prayer room was a picture of some fellow in beard and turban
- I don't know who he was.
Also in the show were a couple of short animated spots showing the
relationship between the three Abrahamic faiths. Both Moses and Jesus
were portrayed but I was surprised to see Muhammad portrayed also albeit
animated.

COMMENT:

By law, it is not allowed. The many hadith plainly speak against it.
The Prophet of Allah (s.a.w.) never practiced such a thing, not once,
ever. Graven images of God and prophets are a "no-no", without
question, with muslims.

By practice, I have not noticed such a thing in visits to many mosques
all around the USA and Canada. Pictures of landscapes maybe an
exception, if that, but of livings thing, no, never inside a masjid, it
is never done in my observations.

If true, that is a grave anomaly worthy of further questions. I
personally would attempt to remove such a thing or not pray there.

Yahyaa Dolphin
San Francisco Bay Area

[Denis Giron]

Post by CooolBreeeze
...

I just wanted to drop a quick line regarding this...

Post by CooolBreeeze
By law, it is not allowed. The many hadith plainly speak
against it.

True. But what does the Qur'an say about it? While the Qur'an seems to
almost encourage iconoclasm (e.g. Abraham destroying the statues
-tamaatheel- in Soorat al-Anbiya), elsewhere in the Qur'an one finds a
text that gives the impression that tamaatheel were in the masjid built
by Sulayman (cf. Soora Saba' 34:13). Of course, this is under the
assumption that the temple built by Solomon was a masjid (perhaps the
original masjidul-aqsa?). Others (Omar Mirza and MENJ come to mind)
have pointed out that Muslim scholars interpret this to mean that each
prophet may have had a somewhat different sharia. Of course, the point
is that it is not at all clear from the Qur'an that images/statues by
themself are forbidden (whether it be in the masjid or somewhere else).
This was all discussed in the following thread in SRI two years ago:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/browse_frm/thread/f2ef5e2d3b014bc1/

Post by CooolBreeeze
By practice, I have not noticed such a thing in visits
to many mosques all around the USA and Canada.

The Hagia Sophia currently has images of angels (and Mary or Jesus) on
its ceiling, and since these date back to the time when the structure
was a church, it seems obvious to me that they were there while it was
a masjid as well (though perhaps they were covered during that
period?).

Exempli gratia:
Loading Image...

Some other interesting images are here...

http://www.ub.uio.no/uhs/ombibl/Sophus/Utstillinger/Mosaikker/Mosaikker.html

...but I don't know which part of the Hagia Sophia they reside (and
perhaps they were brought in when it was turned into a Museum?)

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Post by Denis Giron
The Hagia Sophia currently has images of angels (and Mary or Jesus) on
its ceiling, and since these date back to the time when the structure
was a church, it seems obvious to me that they were there while it was
a masjid as well (though perhaps they were covered during that
period?).
http://mishuna.image.pbase.com/u18/andrys/upload/36247730.mImg_4103.jpg

this does not respond.

Post by Denis Giron
Some other interesting images are here...
http://www.ub.uio.no/uhs/ombibl/Sophus/Utstillinger/Mosaikker/Mosaikker.html
...but I don't know which part of the Hagia Sophia they reside (and
perhaps they were brought in when it was turned into a Museum?)

23 - 30 belong to Ayasofya.

23 belongs to church apse, 26 is also in the nave.
most of the others belong to the upper gallery or entrance,
hints are given in german.


see:


http://www.istanbulportal.com/istanbulportal/HaghiaSophia.aspx


if you click the photo of the interior, you will see above "`Umar"
and "Abu Bakr" some winged figures (2 others on the other columns).
this was the only Byzantine artwork never whitewashed (and at least
once restored). they are called "non-figurative" la^ te*sh*bih (not
made to resemble) by Evliya C,elebi (17th cent.) and identified by
him as the angels Jibri:l, Mika:'il, isra:fi:l and `Azra:'i:l, but
the original intention was cherubim or seraphim. some other figures
seem to have shown through the plaster in his day, but they were
later covered, perhaps by the calligraphy.

Mehmed II is said to have ordered the "cleansing of the symbols of
polytheism" before praying when he first conquered the city in 1453
but a more thorough plastering was done in 1506. this included
the mosaic work in the gallery (where most of the surviving ones
are found). the suriving artwork shows remnants of the plastering that
was done in the Ottoman period.

an annex was built for the Sultan, and this re-opened soem decades
ago as a mosque.

[Saifu]

Bismillah, Alhamdulillah,

Post by David / Amicus
Last week I watched a tv show "30 Days" about a Christian fellow who
went to live in a Muslim environment for a month.

A "Muslim environment" according to who?

Post by David / Amicus
There was a scene in a mosque that on the qibla wall had a picture
hanging of the Great Mosque in Mecca.

This may be possible.

Is that really ok? On another

Post by David / Amicus
wall in the prayer room was a picture of some fellow in beard and turban
- I don't know who he was.

This is an indicator that the place of worship may belong to a cult
which claims association to Islam.

Post by David / Amicus
Also in the show were a couple of short animated spots showing the
relationship between the three Abrahamic faiths. Both Moses and Jesus
were portrayed but I was surprised to see Muhammad portrayed also albeit
animated.

This is beyond the bounds of Islam. No one can claim any association to
Islam practicing such as described above. I would not know what type of
a cult this may be but it looks like one of those "unity of religions
type" -indicated by the theme "relationship between the three Abrahamic
faiths".

Saifu.

[Abdelkarim Benoit Evans]

Post by Saifu

Post by David / Amicus
Also in the show were a couple of short animated spots showing the
relationship between the three Abrahamic faiths. Both Moses and Jesus
were portrayed but I was surprised to see Muhammad portrayed also albeit
animated.

This is beyond the bounds of Islam. No one can claim any association to
Islam practicing such as described above. I would not know what type of
a cult this may be but it looks like one of those "unity of religions
type" -indicated by the theme "relationship between the three Abrahamic
faiths".

I agree with you that displaying photographs in the prayer hall of the
mosque and visual portrayals of God's prophets (peace be on them) is
contrary to Islamic practice.

However, my guess is that the mosque involved is probably NOT (as you
surmise) a place of worship of some "unity of religions cult". I suspect
that it may be an Amadiyyah mosque. I say that because of the
photograph of a bearded, turbaned man in the prayer hall. I have noticed
that Amadiyyah "muslims" seem to put great stock in displaying photos
and portraits of their revered ones.

Frankly, I am surprised that you came to your conclusion of a "unity of
religions cult" because of the presentation based on the "relationship
between the three Abrahamic faiths". That theme is ever-present in the
Qur'an itself. While the errors and misguidance of the Jews and
Chirstians must not be ignored, they, as People of the Book, have indeed
received Allah's revelation through Allah's prophets Moses and Jesus
(peace be on them). Muslims, Jews and Christians are all united (in
spite of any errors or distortion) in confessing their faith in the God
of Abraham. Indeed, Allah himself, tells us in the Qur'an that some
among the Jews and Christians will, with faithful Muslims, be placed
among the righteous in Paradise.

[t***@forgiving-merciful.net]

Salaam David/Amicus,

I would like to know what you, and others, think of Mosques wherein
they place framed names of Allah (Glory be to Him who Is Exalted Above
*all*) and right next to it Mohammad (SAW).

/wa Salaam!

72 | 20
Say I pray to my LORD *only* and I associate *no one* with HIM!

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Post by David / Amicus
Last week I watched a tv show "30 Days" about a Christian fellow who
went to live in a Muslim environment for a month.

where was this "muslim environment"?

what you described is highly unusual and would normally
not be tolerated, especially in a mosque.

however, a Timurid illustrated book (in uighur script
central asian turkic, 14th - 15th cent. CE), Mi`rajname,
the story of the Night Journey does have depictions
of the uncovered faces of the Prophet and other prophets,
some of these were erased when the book came into Ottoman
hands. but then, the Timurids were not very strict.

[Zuiko Azumazi]

"David / Amicus" <***@webtv.net> wrote in message news:6022-42CA4651-***@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net...
<snip> ...

Post by David / Amicus
There was a scene in a mosque that on the qibla wall had a picture
hanging of the Great Mosque in Mecca. ...

<snip> ...

Comment:-
There are several remarkable pictorial, landscape mosaics, at the great
Ummayed Mosque in Damascus, see picture at this link:- [
http://www.syriagate.com/gallery/damascus12.htm ]. It was by built by
Caliph al-Walid around 705-713 CE. The Muslim traveller and writer
al-Maqdisi commented on them early in the tenth century. Apparently, they
were covered over by whitewash for many centuries, until rediscovered in
fairly recent times.
--
Peace
--
We should not be ashamed to acknowledge truth from whatever source
it comes to us, even if it is brought to us by former generations and
foreign peoples. For him who seeks the truth there is nothing of higher
value than truth itself [al-Kindi 801-66]

Zuiko Azumazi
***@hotmail.com