Discussion:
Furqan as used in Quran 25:1
(too old to reply)
z***@yahoo.com
2005-12-19 19:53:48 UTC
Permalink
I recently visited the following article after it was
alluded to in another thread:

http://www.christoph-heger.de/sura25_1.html

I found his argument interesting.
It asserts that the word furqan in the Qur'an
is originally a Christian term which means salvation
and that verse 25:1 in the Quran
can be understood in a Christian context.

It is certainly true that in Aramaic
furqan means salvation
(you can see it in the Targum to Genesis 49:18).
But I'm not very familiar with the argument as a whole
and was curious what readers in SRI
think of this argument.

Zev
Abdalla Alothman
2005-12-21 04:23:19 UTC
Permalink
Asalamu alaikum (Peace)
Post by z***@yahoo.com
I recently visited the following article after it was
http://www.christoph-heger.de/sura25_1.html
I found his argument interesting.
It asserts that the word furqan in the Qur'an
is originally a Christian term which means salvation
and that verse 25:1 in the Quran
can be understood in a Christian context.
You should look at Dr. Heger's messages in soc.religion.islam.
There are a wealth of refutations to all of his arguments. You
might find more than enough at the groups.google.com archives.

It would be interesting to understand the purpose why Heger
wanted to prove that Furqaan and Natheer (when searching
for this amazing theory, look for "warner" "Nadheer" "Furqan")
are related to Christianity in some way.

The Quran does include Arabized words, but there are also
unrelated words that might appear in two different languages.
For example, Gel in English has a different meaning than the
word Jall (pronounced exactly the same) in Arabic. Same goes
for "Bait" (in Arabic it means house...) Heger had many confusions,
and this happened to be one of them.

His Arabic also happened to be very poor -- It might have improved
at the time of this writing.


Wishing you and your family peace and good health.


Salam,
Abdalla Alothman
Altway
2005-12-22 14:07:28 UTC
Permalink
This amended reply failed to appear on SRI
Post by z***@yahoo.com
I found his argument interesting.
It asserts that the word furqan in the Qur'an
is originally a Christian term which means salvation
and that verse 25:1 in the Quran
can be understood in a Christian context.
Post by z***@yahoo.com
It is certainly true that in Aramaic
furqan means salvation.

Comment:-

Heger and Luxemberg who criticised the Quran and, among other things,
advanced this view have been thoroughly discredit.
They appear to be either dishonest, have a non-objective motive or
show no understanding of the Quran.

Showing that a word is similar to or derived from
a different language does not mean that it has the same meaning
in the Quran.
Nor is taking things out of context a valid way of proceeding.

In the Quran the word Furqan refers to Criterion and to the Quran itself.
Anyone reading the Quran understands that in Islam
everyone is responsible for his own actions and is judged accordingly.
The divinity of Jesus is denied and Salvation by belief in the sacrifice of
Jesus is NOT taught - neither is it taught by Jesus in the NT.

These, so called scholars, are also like the Arab in England
who when he was told that someone was "round the bend
and up the pole" ran off down the road to look for him.

or

Like a Frenchman having recently learnt English reads a book about England.
In there is mention of "gays". He does not understand this sentence.
So he looks it up in an ancient dictionary that gives the meaning the word
had 100 or more years ago. He inevitably comes to a false conclusion.

Hamid S. Aziz
Altway
2005-12-22 14:05:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by z***@yahoo.com
I found his argument interesting.
It asserts that the word furqan in the Qur'an
is originally a Christian term which means salvation
and that verse 25:1 in the Quran
can be understood in a Christian context.
Post by z***@yahoo.com
It is certainly true that in Aramaic
furqan means salvation.

Comment:-

Heger and Luxemberg who criticised the Quran and, among other things,
advanced this view have been thoroughly discredit.
They have no understanding of the Quran.

Showing that a word is similar to or derived from
a different language does not mean that it has the same meaning
in the Quran.
Nor is taking things out of context a valid way of proceeding.

In the Quran the word Furqan refers to Criterion and to the Quran itself.
Anyone reading the Quran understands that in Islam
everyone is responsible for his own actions and is judged accordingly.
The divinity of Jesus is denied and Salvation by belief in the sacrifice of
Jesus is NOT taught - neither is it taught by Jesus in the NT.

These, so called scholars, are also like the Arab in England
who when he was told that someone was "round the bend
and up the pole" ran off down the road to look for him.

Hamid S. Aziz
Denis Giron
2006-01-09 10:18:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Altway
Heger and Luxemberg who criticised the Quran and, among other things,
advanced this view have been thoroughly discredit.
Interesting. I, however, was not aware that Luxenberg employed the
furqan argument. Where does he do this? As for either of them (or the
argument itself) being thoroughly discredited, could you be more
specific? Did it happen in this newsgroup? Could you cite (or post)
some examples or arguments?
Post by Altway
Showing that a word is similar to or derived from
a different language does not mean that it has the same meaning
in the Quran.
I agree, and this might be grounds on which to argue that Dr. Heger's
conclusions, therefore, are not necessarily true. That, however, is not
the same as thoroughly discrediting him.
Robert McCall
2005-12-22 14:10:25 UTC
Permalink
Peace be with you,

Actually, Furqan is used in the Qur'an to denote discernment
between right and wrong. Every human being is given a Spirit (Ruh)
which is incorruptible and always counsels us with the commands
of Allah. We also all have a Soul (nefs), which has a heart that
contains each person's individual combination of the 19 vices,
through which Shaytan tries to influence us. We use our mind
in combination with our free will to choose between the two
counsels, and we are judged by what we do with our physical
body as a result of our choices.

Now, Furqan is granted upon a person when he/she wishes
to reach Allah. It is one of the ways a person is strengthened
by Allah once they wish to reach Him spiritually within their
lifetime.

I am at your service,
Robert McCall
***@gmail.com
Anjum
2005-12-26 04:49:53 UTC
Permalink
X-No-Archive: yes
Every human being is given a Spirit (Ruh) which is incorruptible and always counsels us with the commands
of Allah. We also all have a Soul (nefs), which has a heart that
contains each person's individual combination of the 19 vices,
through which Shaytan tries to influence us.
We, at the Academy of Self Knowledge (http://www.askonline.co.za) are
using the following definitions, which you might find useful:

CONSCIOUSNESS: "Consciousness" can be defined as the mental state
of being aware of oneself and the environment, thus it includes mental
processes, thought, feelings and sensations. In literature it is
sometimes quoted to be the organ of thought, and thus relates to the
mind and heart. The journey of human beings is that of developing and
evolving consciousness to its optimum. Consciousness includes states of
being subconscious, unconscious; sleep consciousness, numbness, etc.
Sleep or dream states, wakefulness, being under hypnosis or death are
major levels. Potentially consciousness can span a very wide horizon.

ENTITY: Beingness. Cf. the soul (ruh). The same in everyone.

PERSON: encompassing every aspect of the human being. Soul, heart and
ego. A mask, cover, or shell that encompasses the subtle and the gross,
the seen and the unseen. Like a mask, it changes every second,
according to one's moods, or modes. Expressed as "I". The "I"
of the previous minute is not the same as the "I" of now.

SELF: The nafs (Arabic) The identity. Ego. Personality. Ever changing.
Different levels of consciousness. The self can be at different stages;
the further away from the soul and the One Source, the lower the self
is, and conversely the nearer to reflecting its pure origin, the higher
it is. It is the self that has the potential to transform itself by
reflecting aspects of the soul.

SOUL: The ruh (Arabic); our true entity. Beingness. The Divine Breath
within us which bears the imprint of pre-creation and all Divine
attributes, it is boundless and cannot be seen or defined - only
aspects of its qualities may come through the self. Soul is
multi-layered, with programs and operating systems for several
universes, such as the phase in the womb, then breathing and so on.

You may wish to see how the Qur`an is using the words "nafs" and "ruh"
to describe what and in what context.
Altway
2006-01-15 02:54:16 UTC
Permalink
This reply did not appear in SRI
Post by Denis Giron
Post by Altway
Heger and Luxemberg who criticised the Quran and, among other things,
advanced this view have been thoroughly discredit.
Post by Denis Giron
Interesting. I, however, was not aware that Luxenberg employed the
furqan argument. Where does he do this? As for either of them (or the
argument itself) being thoroughly discredited, could you be more
specific? Did it happen in this newsgroup? Could you cite (or post)
some examples or arguments?

Comment:-

I was speaking about both of them.

I should have said "discredited in the eyes of many people including
Muslims"

Sorry I did make the common mistake where words
are used as if they refer to something impersonal when in fact they have no
real meaning apart from people who think so.
Obviously those who have prejudices against Islam or wish to see defects in
in it
and attack Muslims and Islam will be delighted to accept their ideas as
Gospel truths.
Post by Denis Giron
Post by Altway
Showing that a word is similar to or derived from
a different language does not mean that it has the same meaning
in the Quran.
Post by Denis Giron
I agree, and this might be grounds on which to argue that Dr. Heger's
conclusions, therefore, are not necessarily true. That, however, is not
the same as thoroughly discrediting him.

Comment:-
Luxenberg does exactly the same.

But apart from this criticism, it also pointed out that
if you do not read something according to the instructions by
which it was meant to be read because it was written to be read that way
then you cannot possibly understand it.
This is like using any other tool.
I am sure you can understand that?

Ignoring this fact makes all statements by these two persons wholly
irrelevant and that is why
they are "thoroughly discredited" in our view, or at least in mine.

Having said that, I have no wish to waste further time discussing the
subject.

Hamid S. Aziz
c***@onlinehome.de
2006-01-18 19:00:04 UTC
Permalink
Greetings,

Concerning the genuine meaning of furqân in the Koran, as displayed on
my website http://www.christoph-heger.de/sura25_1.html:

Instead of presenting such truisms like "Showing that a word is similar
to or derived from a different language does not mean that it has the
same meaning in the Quran" Hamid S. Aziz should show us two points:

1st, that in any Arabic text prior to the alleged "revelation" of the
Koran "furqân" has another meaning than "salvation" or related
concepts,

2nd, that in the 7 places in the Koran where "furqân" occurs, it
clearly has another meaning than "salvation" or related concepts,
especially that it has the alleged Islamically guessed meaning of
"revelational scripture" or "criterion" (or as Tabarî says:"al-faSl
bayna l-haqq wa-l-bâTil", "distinction between the truth and the
vanity").

Kind regards,
Christoph Heger
Denis Giron
2006-01-19 11:55:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@onlinehome.de
any Arabic text prior to the alleged "revelation" of the
Koran "furqân" has another meaning than "salvation"
This piqued my interest. Are there any pre-Islamic/pre-Quranic *Arabic*
texts or inscriptions which employ furqaan at all?
Altway
2006-01-19 14:32:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@onlinehome.de
Instead of presenting such truisms like "Showing that a word is similar
to or derived from a different language does not mean that it has the
Post by c***@onlinehome.de
1st, that in any Arabic text prior to the alleged "revelation" of the
Koran "furqân" has another meaning than "salvation" or related
concepts,

Comment:-

You should show us that:-
The meaning you give it is consistent with the rest of the Quran.
That the Arabic speakers and scholars who translated the Quran were deluded
or mistaken.
That you have obeyed the instructios of the Quran as to how it should be
read.

I do not deny that:-
Arabic words come from roots from which many otherwords derive.
There is a connection between following the Criterion and obtaining
Salvation.

But any reader of the Quran (except you and your like) can see that it
denies that Jesus was God,
that he was crucified or that his crucifixion has any significance for
Muslims
and that salvation depends on other than a person's own actions.

Hamid S. Aziz
Denis Giron
2006-01-19 11:56:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Altway
I should have said "discredited in the eyes of many people including
Muslims"
Yes, I understand this, but I'm wondering if you can point to actual
arguments which discredited those who have explicitly endorsed Dr.
Heger's furqaan argument (and I do not believe Luxenberg falls in this
category).
Post by Altway
if you do not read something according to the instructions by
which it was meant to be read because it was written to be
read that way then you cannot possibly understand it.
Perhaps. But now, employing this general sort of cover law which you
have put forth, can you give precise examples relevant to Dr. Heger's
furqaan argument?

In short, I'm very interested in seeing how well you (or Abdallah
Alothman, with all due respect to him) understand the argument and the
debates which swirled around it in SRI. So if Dr. Heger's argument was
discredited, could you provide us with the argument(s) which did such?
Zuiko Azumazi
2006-01-24 17:33:27 UTC
Permalink
<***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:***@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
<snip> ...
Post by z***@yahoo.com
is originally a Christian term which means salvation
and that verse 25:1 in the Quran
can be understood in a Christian context.
<snip> ...

Comment:-
As far as I understand it [Ref. G. Walters] the English (Christian) term
"salvation" used in the AV bible is derived from Lat. salvare, 'to save',
and salus, 'health', 'help', and translates Heb. y'su'a and cognates
('breadth', 'ease', 'safety') and Gk. soteria and cognates ('cure',
'recovery', 'redemption', 'remedy', 'rescue', 'welfare'). Although, this
doesn't directly address the "furqan as used in the Qur'an 25:1"
controversy.

Is there an extant copy of an early Christian bible or commentary, written
in Arabic, that precedes the Qur'an? Wouldn't that answer, or shine some
light, on this apparently unascertainable controversy?
--
Peace
--
Allah is one but Islam is a mosaic. The Muslim world is a linguistic tower
of Babel, an ethnic patchwork, a geographical puzzle and a political
kaleidoscope offering a picture of extraordinary doctrinal diversity.
[Slimane Zéghidour]

Zuiko Azumazi
***@hotmail.com
Denis Giron
2006-01-25 10:22:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zuiko Azumazi
...
Is there an extant copy of an early Christian bible or commentary, written
in Arabic, that precedes the Qur'an? Wouldn't that answer, or shine some
light, on this apparently unascertainable controversy?
From my limited investigation, there are absolutely no Arabic
translations of the Bible or commentaries on the Bible in Arabic which
predate Islam. The earliest manuscript of an Arabic translation of the
Bible is apparently Mt. Sinai Arabic Codex 151, which dates to the 9th
century. While I have peeked at Staal's text (Harvey Staal has
reproduced the text for Corpus Scriptorum Christianorum Orientalum), I
did not check to see if and where "furqaan" appears in the text.
However, I'm *guessing* that it does not appear, but this _is_ an
interesting question nonetheless (i.e. does furqaan appear in Staal's
text?). Maybe I'll try to find out the next time I visit the library.

Also, as I alluded to in another post...

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/e82cfd98870a51e4

...I am ignorant of *any* pre-Quranic examples of the word furqaan
appearing in an Arabic text or inscription. However, that is not a
major point since I am largely ignorant of pre-Islamic Arabic
texts/inscriptions. Perhaps those who might be more familiar with the
subject of pre-Islamic/Quranic Arabic inscriptions/texts (e.g. Dr.
Saifullah, Dr. Heger) can shed some light on this? However, I'm going
to again *guess* that no such writing exists (though I would love to be
proven wrong!).

But the argument referenced by Zev is not presenting furqaan as
necessarily a pre-Islamic *Arabic* word meaning "salvation" (though, if
I'm not mistaken, I vaguely recall somebody citing one Arabic
dictionary that listed "salvation" as a *possible* meaning, and I know
for a fact that Hanna E. Kassis' "A Concordance of the Qur'an" does the
same). Rather it is treating it as an *Aramaic* word which means
salvation. As Zev himself noted, it appears in the Targum (i.e. the
Jewish Aramaic translation of the Hebrew Bible) to Genesis 49:18 (as a
translation of the Hebrew y'shu`ah = "salvation"), and Dr. Heger
correctly cited Syriac dictionaries which define it as such.
Zuiko Azumazi
2006-01-29 14:50:14 UTC
Permalink
"Denis Giron" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:***@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
<snip> ...
Post by Denis Giron
However, I'm *guessing* that it does not appear, but this _is_ an
interesting question nonetheless (i.e. does furqaan appear in Staal's
text?). ...
However, I'm going to again *guess* that no such writing exists (though I
would love to be proven wrong!).
Comment:-
I want to make it quite plain that I'm not a antiquarian scholar in ancient
texts and languages, Islamic or otherwise, so my observations can only be
based on what contemporary commentators are relating to 'lay' people like
myself. Which raises the question, at least in my mind, what sense do I
derive from the information being presented by yourself and others.

Twice above you have used the term "guess" which connotes, to me at least,
'a message expressing an opinion based on incomplete evidence'. From what
I've superficially read, commentators are generally inferring that an
'educated guess' is better than an "uneducated guess", which is probably
self-evident, however, it's still a "guess" to me, or a "guessing game",
that will, based on the principle of 'no complete MS evidence', always be
debatable, if not , unascertainable..

<snip> ...
Post by Denis Giron
Dr. Heger correctly cited Syriac dictionaries which define it as such.
<snip> ...

Comment:-
Out of general intellectual interest, from a Muslim perspective, how were
these Syriac dictionaries compiled? Were they derived from the ancient
Peshitta biblical texts and MS's or later secondary polyglots? What's the
definitional or semantic relationship between Eastern, Western and
'Palestinian' (Melchite) Syriac? Is there, in fact, strict 'linguistic'
uniformity between say the 'Eastern' and 'Western' Peshitta (Nestorian)
biblical texts? If so, weren't these Syriac (Pershitta) biblical texts, then
derived in turn from earlier Greek and Hebrew biblical texts?
--
Peace
--
In times of profound change, the learners inherit the earth, while the
learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no
longer exists.
[Eric Hoffer]

Zuiko Azumazi
***@hotmail.com
Yusuf B Gursey
2006-02-02 11:00:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zuiko Azumazi
<snip> ...
Post by Denis Giron
Dr. Heger correctly cited Syriac dictionaries which define it as such.
<snip> ...
Comment:-
Out of general intellectual interest, from a Muslim perspective, how were
these Syriac dictionaries compiled? Were they derived from the ancient
they are compiled by the usual methods available to a lexicographer,
reference to the context, comparing with better known texts, like the
Bible in Greek, older dictionaries, etc. ...

how do you propose a "muslim perspective" should be?

you ask interesting questions, yet it is difficult to answer
many of them and yet maintain the required "relevance to Islam"
demanded by this forum. ever thought of posting in other forums,
like unmoderated ARI?


the 'relevance to Islam' I could think of is that some
polemicists fall into the trap of not checking whether
some words are 'Old Syriac' (pre-islamic) or later,
which may include loanwords form classical arabic.

or they may not reflect a loan into arabic at all.

such mistakes are made by Luxenberg:


http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/luxreview2.html

http://www.christoph-heger.de/Simon_Hopkins_%27Review_of_Christoph_Luxenberg%27_JSAI_28_2003_gek.PDF



these are not relevant to furqa:n / purqa:n-a (which is Old Armaic),
but it is relevant that furqa:n is a regularly formed arabic
verbal noun as well.

finally, there is the question of the value of the etymological
approach in the first place. "meaning is determined by usage,"
not etymology. so, as Islamicist scholar Walid Saleh argues,
one most look at the context of the word used in the Qur'an
first to understand its meaning. all the more since early 7th
cent. Hijaz was not a center of Syriac scholarship (from all
available evidence). not surprisingly Christian Arabic,
with terminology from studies in Syria and Iraq, shows more
direct Syriac influence.
Post by Zuiko Azumazi
Peshitta biblical texts and MS's or later secondary polyglots? What's the
definitional or semantic relationship between Eastern, Western and
Syriac is the Eastern Aramaic dialect of Edessa (now Urfa, Turkey)
of the 1st. millenium.

the Peshitta was written as a consonantal skeleton. as the vowel
signs were put in, the Eastern, Nestorian Chruch in Mesopotamia
applied the vowel system of its own Aramaic dialect, the Jacobite
Church the more Western version of East Aramaic, and well, the
Nestorian, the Eastern version.
Post by Zuiko Azumazi
'Palestinian' (Melchite) Syriac? Is there, in fact, strict 'linguistic'
the Melkite (or Uniate) counterparts of these churches use either
western or eastern vowel systems depending on the rite.


there is no "Palestinian Syriac". Palestinian Aramaic was a
West Aramaic dialect. it was written in the square ("Hebrew")
script. the related Galilean Aramaic survives in two southern
Syrian villages.

no codex in the language survives. nevertheless, we are told
that various judaizing Christian sects each had there own
Gospel (sing.) in that language.

a Hadith says that Waraqa b. Nawfal wrote the Gospel ('inji:l ; sing.)
in 'Hebrew'. this suggests Palestinian Aramaic, and perhaps his
denomination may have been one of these sects. and there are other
reasons for suspecting that these sects were active in early 7th cent.
Arabia.

it is also likely that among Arabian jews jewish Aramaic, likely
related to Palestinian, was in use among their rabbis and scholars.
Post by Zuiko Azumazi
uniformity between say the 'Eastern' and 'Western' Peshitta (Nestorian)
it's the same words in the same consonantal skeleton but with a
different vowel system.
Post by Zuiko Azumazi
biblical texts? If so, weren't these Syriac (Pershitta) biblical texts, then
derived in turn from earlier Greek and Hebrew biblical texts?
IIRC,from what I had read, the OT portion may show the influence of
the Targums (Jewish Aramaic translations of the Hebrew canon. the
NT portion was translated from Greek.




arabs were in contact with aramaic speakers for many centuries and
even sometimes used various forms of aramaic for literary or religious
purposes. but this was over a period of centuries, so words sometimes
changed meaning. etymology merely gives clues when other evidence is
scarce and usage is infrequent.

so in short, before making a knee-jerk reaction to a "Syriac
origin of a Qur'anic word" think how much this is relevant
to the understanding of the Qur'an in the first place.
Zuiko Azumazi
2006-02-03 08:53:22 UTC
Permalink
"Yusuf B Gursey" <***@theworld.com> wrote in message news:***@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

<snip> ...
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
they are compiled by the usual methods available to a lexicographer,
reference to the context, comparing with better known texts, like the
Bible in Greek, older dictionaries, etc. ...
<snip> ...

Comment:-
Of course I don't know the history of Syriac language. I'm not entirely sure
who the actual people were who spoke the language, I presume Assyrians (?),
other than to say they would be possibly be called or designated as 'Arabs'
in the contemporary world.

If so, wouldn't these mediaeval translators, or scribes, have had to speak,
read and write, Arabic, Greek and Hebrew, in addition to Syriac? Wouldn't
this confound the "Furqan as used in Quran 25:1" controversy, back in those
interesting times, without recourse to standardised 'interlingual'
dictionaries?

<snip> ...
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
how do you propose a "muslim perspective" should be?
<snip> ...

Comment:-
Personally, I think the "muslim perspective" should be focussed on
discovering the truth, wherever that leads us. But that's a matter of taste.

<snip> ...
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
you ask interesting questions, yet it is difficult to answer
many of them and yet maintain the required "relevance to Islam"
demanded by this forum. ever thought of posting in other forums,
like unmoderated ARI?
<snip> ...

Comment (Tongue-in-cheek):-
I understand that predicament very well, although, I don't think that
'sufficient reason' to join the 'dark side' (no offence). ;-)
--
Peace
--
If language is not correct, then what is said is not what is meant; if what
is said is not what is meant, then what ought to be done remains undone.
[Confucius]

Zuiko Azumazi
***@hotmail.com
Yusuf B Gursey
2006-02-08 21:57:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zuiko Azumazi
<snip> ...
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
they are compiled by the usual methods available to a lexicographer,
reference to the context, comparing with better known texts, like the
Bible in Greek, older dictionaries, etc. ...
syriac lexicography does not go too far back. when it was more of a
living
language, it was probably done from the knowledge and experience of the
writer.
Post by Zuiko Azumazi
<snip> ...
Comment:-
Of course I don't know the history of Syriac language. I'm not entirely sure
Syriac is the literary language of 5th cent. CE Edessa, a form of
Eastern
Aramaic, amd later writings based on it.
Post by Zuiko Azumazi
who the actual people were who spoke the language, I presume Assyrians (?),
Assyrian is the prefered self-designation going on for the last couple
of
decades or so especially in Iraq and especially in political discourse.
I
haven't seen or heard it yet in Turkey. "Syria" was the form of
"Assyria"
used by the Romans to designate what had been the western domains of
the
Assyrian Empire, while the Persians called "Assyria" the former
Assyrian
heartland under their control (around Mosul). it's a little confusing
since the Assyrians of antiquity spoke an entirely different extinct
semitic language. nowadays arabs and turks usually call them
surya:ni: (arab. sing.) / su"rya^ni^ (turk. sing.).


some of whom remained christian adopted arabic and blended amongst the
christian arabs, syriac only to remain as a church language for them.
those who became muslims quite completely blended amongst muslim arabs.
a muslim aramaean culture did not develop.
Post by Zuiko Azumazi
other than to say they would be possibly be called or designated as 'Arabs'
in the contemporary world.
there are still people in Iraq, Syria, Turkey and Lebanon, as well as
in diaspora communities that speak an eastern aramaic idiom. they use
Syriac in liturgy and occasionally Neo-Syriac in writing. some in
Turkey
don't speak arabic at all.

there is a Hadith (reference please) that quotes Muhammad as saying
that
an Arab is one who speaks arabic, and most contemporary definitions of
an Arab emphasive this linguistic aspect (it is still tied in with self
identification, as the Maltese do not consider themselves Arabs and
hence
do not consider their language arabic) consequently these people are
not
arabs, nor were they considered arabs before.

I found the Hadith in english translation thus:

"Being an Arab is not because of your father or mother,
but being an Arab is on account of your tongue. Whoever
learns Arabic is an Arab."

(original please?)

well, this sounds even more general. I would say that those who
learned arabic and considered themselves arabs became arabs.

I read that this is "extremely weak and unrelibale", and is attested
in the 12th cent., but it is still shows atitudes of at least the
period it was attested for.
Post by Zuiko Azumazi
If so, wouldn't these mediaeval translators, or scribes, have had to speak,
read and write, Arabic, Greek and Hebrew, in addition to Syriac? Wouldn't
why would all the medieaval translators *have* had to speak all four?
Post by Zuiko Azumazi
this confound the "Furqan as used in Quran 25:1" controversy, back in those
interesting times, without recourse to standardised 'interlingual'
dictionaries?
yes, since there were no early interlingual dictionaries, all things
being
equal, the word was spread through word of mouth and thuis became
subject
to change.
Post by Zuiko Azumazi
<snip> ...
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
how do you propose a "muslim perspective" should be?
<snip> ...
Comment:-
Personally, I think the "muslim perspective" should be focussed on
discovering the truth, wherever that leads us. But that's a matter of taste.
that's very noble, but the moderation guidelines seem to be a bit more
restrictive.
Denis Giron
2006-02-03 12:01:23 UTC
Permalink
Just a quick reply...
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
these are not relevant to furqa:n / purqa:n-a (which is Old Armaic),
I would quickly note that the Aramaic word, both in Syriac and Targumic
Aramaic...

exempli gratia:
Loading Image...
Loading Image...
http://mechon-mamre.org/i/t/u/up0112.htm#1492

... is spelled slightly differently from how the word in the Qur'an is
spelled. In the relevant Syriac dictionaries it is fu:rqan, while in
the relevant passage of the Targum linked to above it is furqan (though
in Jewish Aramaic dictionaries I have seen it as fu:rqan). I wonder,
however, is the word in the Qur'an uniformly spelled the same way in
each verse? Is it spelled differently in variant readings/recitations?
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
but it is relevant that furqa:n is a regularly formed arabic
verbal noun as well.
Is the model Fu`LAN <f3lan>? What others words fall under this
formation? Is "Qur'aan" itself a (rough?) example? Or should I be
asking this in sci.lang?

Another interesting and related discussion might be with regard to the
word faru:q, i.e. how it clearly means savior in Syriac texts, but in
Islamic Arabic texts takes on a different meaning, one more related to
the Islamic understanding of furqa:n, e.g. as the one who distinguishes
between truth and falsehood.
Yusuf B Gursey
2006-02-09 19:01:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Denis Giron
Just a quick reply...
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
these are not relevant to furqa:n / purqa:n-a (which is Old Armaic),
I would quickly note that the Aramaic word, both in Syriac and Targumic
Aramaic...
http://www.christoph-heger.de/furqan_Brockelmann.GIF
http://www.christoph-heger.de/furqan_Payne_Smith.GIF
http://mechon-mamre.org/i/t/u/up0112.htm#1492
... is spelled slightly differently from how the word in the Qur'an is
spelled. In the relevant Syriac dictionaries it is fu:rqan, while in
Thackston's (rather pedagogic) Syriac Grammar does not list any
contrast
between u and u: .it seems that /u/ is written plene. so I'm avoidng
the vowel length marking. the only instance of <w> marking an
etymological
long vowel is in the western syriac when it has developed form eastern
syriac /o:/, pronounced [u] in western syriac.

it's purqo:no: / purqa:na:

and one instance of pruqa:na: (or western pruqo:n-o:) !? written
<prwqn'>
Post by Denis Giron
the relevant passage of the Targum linked to above it is furqan (though
it's purqAn , with qameS i.e. A which is usually long. you are probably
thinking of a modern recitation which does not distinguish between
patHa and qameS. so one may indicate as purqa:n
Post by Denis Giron
in Jewish Aramaic dictionaries I have seen it as fu:rqan). I wonder,
I don't know how the reconstructions in aramaic as to length are,
Enc. of Islam has purqa:n-a: . it's not clear to me that aramaic
orthographies,esp. talmudic, syriac consistently distinguish length.
as in your example there are furqa:n and IIRC f&rqa:n & = schewa.
Post by Denis Giron
however, is the word in the Qur'an uniformly spelled the same way in
each verse? Is it spelled differently in variant readings/recitations?
early codices may have the alif ommitted, as in the orthogrpahy of
arabic before the reform attributed Abdulmalik, but afterwards it
is spelled the same way throughout the Qur'an.

but *fu:rqa:n is an impossibility in classical arabic. you can't
have a shut syllable (ending in a consanant) with a long vowel
unless the last consonant is doubled AND the vowel is either /a:/
or the diphthong /ay/. this rule is strictly observed in classical
arabic even in loanwords, though lower registers of MSA occasionally
violate this rule with recent loans or borrowings from colloquial.
for example, sala:mlik (Egypt) "reception room" (in traditonal
houses this would be the part open to male visitors), from turkish
sela^mlIk (in turkish /k/ would tend toward [q] due to the back
vowel I , the undotted i). of the same meaning, arabic sala:m (in
the meaning of "greeting:) plus a turkish realtive suffix -lik / lIk
etc. another example of modern rule breaking is (al-)So:dyu:m "sodium"
a more classical pronunciation would be (al-)Su:diyu:m . BTW "Natrium"
the neo-Latin word, is from arabic naTru:n "natron" from Egyptian, via
greek nitron. less obvious is "soda" (modern arabic So:da: / Su:da:)
from arabic Suda:3 "headache", apparently because of a soda medicine
thought to cure headaches.
Post by Denis Giron
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
but it is relevant that furqa:n is a regularly formed arabic
verbal noun as well.
Is the model Fu`LAN <f3lan>? What others words fall under this
yes.
Post by Denis Giron
formation? Is "Qur'aan" itself a (rough?) example? Or should I be
qur'a:n(un) "recitation" is an example of a verbal noun
like furqa:n(un) so is qurba:n(un) "sacrifice" also in
one verse "nearness", xusra:n(un) "loss, to suffer a loss",
Gufra:n(un) "pardon", kufra:n(un) "unthankfulness", and
bunya:n(un) "building" all qur'anic words. in arabic
there is also $ukra:n(un) and ruHja:n(un) "superiority",
fuqda:n(un) "loss" I can think of.
Post by Denis Giron
asking this in sci.lang?
sci.lang would yield more authoritative and more detialed answers for
the aramaic part of the post.
Post by Denis Giron
Another interesting and related discussion might be with regard to the
word faru:q, i.e. how it clearly means savior in Syriac texts, but in
Islamic Arabic texts takes on a different meaning, one more related to
the Islamic understanding of furqa:n, e.g. as the one who distinguishes
between truth and falsehood.
al-fa:ru:q is the epithet of of the Caliph `Umar.

one who distinguishes distinguishes between truth and falsehood
and one who seperates the good people from the bad ones, as the
Qur'an refers Moses as doing. hence there is an idea of "saving",
quite literally (and this is the semantic connection in the other
semitic languages as well). but the specialized christian notion
of "salvation" and "savior" is still not waranted.
Yusuf B Gursey
2006-02-02 15:26:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Denis Giron
Post by Zuiko Azumazi
...
Is there an extant copy of an early Christian bible or commentary, written
in Arabic, that precedes the Qur'an? Wouldn't that answer, or shine some
light, on this apparently unascertainable controversy?
From my limited investigation, there are absolutely no Arabic
translations of the Bible or commentaries on the Bible in Arabic which
remember though that according to muslim tradition Waraqa b. Nawfal
did some translating of the Gospel(s) and even from the Qur'an
one can adduce that Muhammad's audience was familiar with the
Biblical Stories. indeed, the Qur'an is such that it assumes a
certain amount familiarity wit them. while there may have been
no codices in circulation, there seems to have been an arabic
oral tradition in circulation and perhaps some written material.

after all, there were arab christians (at a time when we see
arabic inscriptions, 6th cent.), and there must have been some
effort to get the message across to those who did not know one
of the languages into which the Bible had been translated into at
the time.

there is also an interesting fragment discussed and referenced in
M. Macdonald in Arab. Arch. & Epig. 2000: 11: 28-79 (p. 50)

<<

In addition, there are two leaves of
parchment from a Psalter found in the genizah
of the Umayyad mosque in Damascus.
They bear part of the Septuagint text
of Psalm 78 (LXX, 77) with an Arabic gloss
in Greek transliteration, set out in parallel
columns. Following a detailed study of this
text I am convinced that it is pre-Islamic
(172).
Post by Denis Giron
predate Islam. The earliest manuscript of an Arabic translation of the
acc. to Enc. of Islam II, "Indjil" there seems to be reliable reports
of
arabic bibles in the 8th cent. CE and perhaps even in the 1st cent AH.
Post by Denis Giron
Bible is apparently Mt. Sinai Arabic Codex 151, which dates to the 9th
century. While I have peeked at Staal's text (Harvey Staal has
reproduced the text for Corpus Scriptorum Christianorum Orientalum), I
did not check to see if and where "furqaan" appears in the text.
I couldn't find it using a searchable Arabic bible on-line (the
search engine does not ignore voweling and other diacritics except
final ones, so there is a margin for error.

nevertheless, I couldn't find any seperate specifically christian
usage either for it in dictionaries.
Post by Denis Giron
However, I'm *guessing* that it does not appear, but this _is_ an
interesting question nonetheless (i.e. does furqaan appear in Staal's
text?). Maybe I'll try to find out the next time I visit the library.
Also, as I alluded to in another post...
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/msg/e82cfd98870a51e4
...I am ignorant of *any* pre-Quranic examples of the word furqaan
appearing in an Arabic text or inscription. However, that is not a
acc. to the article in Enc. Of Islam II "Furkan" it doesn't.
Post by Denis Giron
major point since I am largely ignorant of pre-Islamic Arabic
texts/inscriptions. Perhaps those who might be more familiar with the
subject of pre-Islamic/Quranic Arabic inscriptions/texts (e.g. Dr.
Saifullah, Dr. Heger) can shed some light on this? However, I'm going
to again *guess* that no such writing exists (though I would love to be
proven wrong!).
the amount of pre-islamic arabic (excluding "ancient north arabian"
grafitti) inscriptions is extremely limited and of extremely limited
content (and so is the content of ANA grafitti extremely limited). if
there was anattestation we would have heard about it. and Enc. Islam II
and Jeffery and others assert that there is none.
Post by Denis Giron
But the argument referenced by Zev is not presenting furqaan as
necessarily a pre-Islamic *Arabic* word meaning "salvation" (though, if
I'm not mistaken, I vaguely recall somebody citing one Arabic
dictionary that listed "salvation" as a *possible* meaning, and I know
among others there is the meaning naSr , normally help but also
meaning deliverance, redemption, salvation.
Post by Denis Giron
for a fact that Hanna E. Kassis' "A Concordance of the Qur'an" does the
same). Rather it is treating it as an *Aramaic* word which means
salvation. As Zev himself noted, it appears in the Targum (i.e. the
Jewish Aramaic translation of the Hebrew Bible) to Genesis 49:18 (as a
translation of the Hebrew y'shu`ah = "salvation"), and Dr. Heger
correctly cited Syriac dictionaries which define it as such.
Enc. of Islam II "Furkan" takes the position eventually reached by
Bell,
after a number of changes, and based on the *usage* in the Qur'an.

in this view furqa:n entered arabic religious terminology through
Syriac. that being said, the argument goes, it was re-etymologized
under the influence of native arabic faraqa - discrimination - of
which furqa:n is also regularly formed arabic verbal noun. thus,
in the Qur'an the word denotes discrimination. it's still vaguely
related to "deliverance" since that means being pulled out or
seperated from a bad situation.

this view does not imply that there is "really" an aspect of
specifically christian theology in the Qur'an that was later
suppressed. it merely says that previous use in monotheist
discourse had spread the lexime but used in a native arabic
way.
Zuiko Azumazi
2006-02-04 06:50:46 UTC
Permalink
"Yusuf B Gursey" <***@theworld.com> wrote in message news:***@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

This is another question, that I'm having some difficulty with
investigating, where you or another subscriber, more qualified than I could
possibly assist.

The object of "Syriac" has controversially arisen in another recent thread
in SRI, concerning the transmission of Greek knowledge to the West. Do you
know if there are any extant copies of these Syriac versions of the corpus
of what has loosely been called "Greek learning" that is being
speculatively suggested?

Obviously, the truth of the matter, is important to Muslims because Islamic
history books tend to confirm that Greek knowledge was transmitted solely
through the Arabic medium?

Another unresolved question in my mind is if the Syriac speaking, Arab
Christians, back then and there (6th & 7th centuries CE), were competent
translators (and I have no reason to believe they weren't), wouldn't they
have translated the Syriac bible, as a priority into, Arabic far earlier
than the 9th century as is being speculatively suggested elsewhere?
--
Peace
--
Speculation, theory, what are they but thinking? Can man disdain
speculation, can he disdain theory, without disdaining thought as well?
[Bentham 1824]
--
Zuiko Azumazi.
***@hotmail.com
Yusuf B Gursey
2006-02-14 03:36:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zuiko Azumazi
This is another question, that I'm having some difficulty with
investigating, where you or another subscriber, more qualified than I could
possibly assist.
The object of "Syriac" has controversially arisen in another recent thread
in SRI, concerning the transmission of Greek knowledge to the West. Do you
know if there are any extant copies of these Syriac versions of the corpus
of what has loosely been called "Greek learning" that is being
speculatively suggested?
there are references to where published versions of the surviving works
maybe found in Enc. of Islam II "Tardjama"

the syriac undercurrent is evident from the trasncriptions of the
greek words, which betray either having come through Syriac or
using Syriac conventions. (I realized this myself when reading
about a suggestion made in the discussions of the Egyptian
Language Academy. one proposal for transcribing greek names
was startling syriac-like. later it was actually rejected on this
ground, the chairman saying that if medieval arabs chose
to write with conventions, this shouldn't be binding on modern arabs).
later one does see more native arabic ways of writing greek words.
Post by Zuiko Azumazi
Obviously, the truth of the matter, is important to Muslims because Islamic
history books tend to confirm that Greek knowledge was transmitted solely
through the Arabic medium?
see the article "Tardjama"

initially syriac translations of the greek works were utilised, but
this
was insufficient and greek works were translated directly into arabic.
as interest mounted some muslim scholars learned greek and translated
the works for themselves, and built upon these works. al-fa:ra:bi:, a
great muslim thinker (he was turkish BTW), learned greek from a priest
and translated philosophical works into arabic and then built upon and
criticized
and analysed these works (AFAIK mainly of Plato's work). the article
also mentions middle persian translations of greek being utilized.

since greek and syriac were church languages christians, aramaeans and
arabs, were heavily represented among the translators. evidently there
persians (I presume both zoroastrian and muslim) as well. were but as I
have said muslims also took an interest in this aspect as well.


a few centuries later and in another place (Spain and Sicily)
christian, jewish and muslim scholars translated the arabic works
into Latin, although Europeans also sometimes learned arabic and
read and translated the works for themselves.

to dwell on the christians (and others) in the translation offices
and ignore muslim civilization is wrong. the main contribution was
the developement and original works in between, which was mainly
by muslims, although christians, jews, and Harranians (Sabi'a.
more precisely the "false Sabi'a" who were more pagan). were also
present. finally, and very importantly it was a muslim state and
the intellectual and the relgious atmosphere that brought the
various ideas, nationalities and religious groups together in
a harmonious way and encouraged the intellectual effort. well,
having *paper* an inexpensive and durable writing material helped
a lot.
Post by Zuiko Azumazi
Another unresolved question in my mind is if the Syriac speaking, Arab
Christians, back then and there (6th & 7th centuries CE), were competent
translators (and I have no reason to believe they weren't), wouldn't they
have translated the Syriac bible, as a priority into, Arabic far earlier
than the 9th century as is being speculatively suggested elsewhere?
as I said, there are reports of arabic NT translations from greek or
syriac or other aramaic from the late 6th cent. (the interlinear Greek
letter translation, it seems and the tradition about Waraqa b. Nawfal),
early 7th. (a report of an arab ruler ordering a translation
631 - 640 CE). also the lines reported by Ibn Ishaq, with <al-mnHmna:>
acc. to the article in EI2 of palestinian aramaic origin and may be
from
a very old tradition. but mostly these seem to be fragmentary. a full
translation of the hebrew OT was done in the 10th cent by jews.

but as can be gleaned from the Qur'an an arabic scripture was a novel
idea. furthermore there is no or little evidence from muslim traditon
or the Qur'an that central arabian christians formed a signifcant
community except in the periphary (Najran, Syria etc.). in the south
ethiopic was a christian medium and there is christian terminology
in the Qur'an from ethiopic. indeed, 'inji:l itself seems to have
ethiopic as its immediate source.

christian bible translation was not as prolific as it is today.
there was no autonomous arab patriarchate to sponsor an arabic
canon and not enough arab christians to support such a patriarchate.
Dr. Christoph Heger
2006-02-02 14:52:06 UTC
Permalink
Greetings,

The below message of mine has been sent to sri already on January,
24th. For some reason, unknown to me, it never appeared there. I try it
again.

Concerning the genuine meaning of furqân in the Koran, as displayed on
my website http://www.christoph-heger.de/sura25_1.html, I had
Post by Altway
Post by c***@onlinehome.de
1st, that in any Arabic text prior to the alleged "revelation" of the
Koran "furqân" has another meaning than "salvation" or related
concepts,
and
Post by Altway
Post by c***@onlinehome.de
2nd, that in the 7 places in the Koran where "furqân" occurs, it
clearly has another meaning than "salvation" or related concepts,
especially that it has the alleged Islamically guessed meaning of
"revelational scripture" or "criterion" (or as Tabarî says:"al-faSl
bayna l-haqq wa-l-bâTil", "distinction between the truth and the
vanity").
Since he showed himself unable to cope with them, I will do it myself:

1st, as already Arthur Jeffery in his "Foreign Vocabulary of the
Qur'an", Baroda 1938, p. 228, has remarked, "there seems to be no
evidence of the use of the word in Arabic earlier than the Qur'an". So
there is all the more no Arabic text prior to the alleged "revelation"
of the Koran in which "furqân" would have another meaning than
"salvation" or related concepts.

2nd, at all the 7 places in the Koran where "furqân" occurs, it can
without any difficulty understood as by "salvation" or related
concepts. There is no need to understand it as "criterion" or even as
"revelational scripture". Furthermore in Surah 8:42, where reference is
to "the day of the furqan, the day when the two hosts met" it even is
impossible to understand "furqan" as "criterion" of "revelational
scripture", but makes good sense to understand it as "salvation".

Hamid S. Aziz, however gave this circumventive
Post by Altway
Comment:-
You should show us that:-
The meaning you give it is consistent with the rest of the Quran.
I just have shown it.
Post by Altway
That the Arabic speakers and scholars who translated the Quran were
deluded
Post by Altway
or mistaken.
I just have shown it. And it is no surprise the traditional Islamic
philologers made a lot of guesswork what "furqan" might mean. So Arthur
Jeffery duly said (l.c. p. 226): "This uncertainty and confusion is
difficult to explain if we are dealing with a genuine Arabic word, and
is sufficient of itself to suggest that it is a borrowed term."
Post by Altway
That you have obeyed the instructios of the Quran as to how it should be
read.
Why should I follow such instructions? Can't you imagine that they
might be misleading? I already had pointed to such an example of a
totally misleading instruction: the lengthy, non-fitting and obviously
later inserted verse Surah 74:31, which has no other aim than to
solidify the meanwhile traditional misunderstanding of the short
previous verse 74:30, which itself usually is misread as "Over it are
nineteen".
Post by Altway
But any reader of the Quran (except you and your like) can see that it
denies that Jesus was God,
Irrelevant for the present point! By the way, I do not deny that the
Koran on various occasions denies Jesus' divinity.
Post by Altway
that he was crucified
That is a misunderstanding of the famous verse. The Koran is not
doubtful that Jesus already has died.
Post by Altway
and that salvation depends on other than a person's own actions.
The Koran is not definite with regard to this question. (By the way, if
salvation actually depended on a person's own actions, there would be
no salvation at all, since atonement for one's own sins is a
contradiction in itself.)

Kind regards,
Christoph Heger
hajj abujamal
2006-02-04 05:19:05 UTC
Permalink
as-salaamu 'alaikum!
The idea of 'furqan, as testified to by its usage in the Qur'an,
is that it sieves the truth from the false. ... This is why,
immediately after proclaiming the Battle of Badr as the Day of
'Remember ye were on the hither side of the valley, and they on the
farther side, and the caravan on lower ground than ye. Even if ye
had made a mutual appointment to meet, ye would certainly have
failed in the appointment: but that ALLAH might accomplish a matter
already enacted; that those who died might die after a clear Sign,
and those who lived might live after a clear Sign. And verily ALLAH
is He Who heareth and knoweth (all things).
ALLAH ta'ala had already given the Children of Israel knowledge of
the Battle of Badr as a Sign of the Messenger of universal Salvation,
by the testimony of Isaiah recorded at Isaiah 21:13-17:

"The burden upon Arabia. In the forest in Arabia shall ye lodge,
O ye traveling companies of Dedanim.
The inhabitants of the land of Tema brought water to him that was
thirsty; they met with their bread him that fled.
For they fled from the swords, from the drawn sword, and from the
bent bow, and from the grievousness of war.
For thus hath the Lord said unto me, Within a year, according to
the years of an hireling, and all the glory of Kedar shall fail;
And the residue of the number of archers, the mighty men of the
children of Kedar, shall be diminished; for the Lord God of Israel
hath spopken it."

When the Quraysh, of Kedar (Makkah), set warriors of every tribe
outside the house of Muhammad sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam, to kill
him when he came out, the Messsenger left Makkah (Kedar) and spent
three full days and three full nights in the belly of the earth, as
Jesus 'alaihi as-salaam had prophesied, in a cave south of Makkah, and
then proceeded to Madinah (Tema), north of Makkah, where he was met by
the people awaiting him with water and bread. Within the next year,
Kedar attacked the muslims at Badr. A third were killed, a third were
captured, and a third fled. This fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah to
the letter and was a Sign for everyone there, especially the Jews who
knew the prophecy and what it meant.
This day was the actual blow to the Quraysh, when they lost 70 of
their leaders on Badr. In fact, this battle is what really what
began the ascendancy of Islam. The rest of the battles were
attempts by the Quraysh to restore a lost glory, which they never
recovered. After this battle, it was Abu Sufyan (R) who took on
the reigns of leading the fight against Muhammad (S), because all
the major players were killed. Even Abu Lahab, who tried to escape
the Battle, upon hearing news of this loss, contracted a disease
and died shortly thereafter. His death was so humiliating even his
sons feared to touch his dead body. The truth was sifted from the
false.
Actually al-Furqaan doesn't "sift" so much as it makes an
unbridgeable and undeniably clear chasm between truth and falsehood,
and splits people to one side or the other, leaving nothing in
between. It completely eliminates any possibility of "maybe" or
speculation aimed at reconciling two utterly opposite and mutually
exclusive things.
... the Quran is subtly addressing these People of the Book that
are prompting the unbelievers to ask these questions, that they
themselves know the answers given by the Quran, and the truth of
Muhammad (S) are confirmed by their own scriptures.
Just as when Jesus came, the People of the Book knew exactly who
and what they were seeing. That's why they were in Madina waiting for
him, and they witnessed everything the prophets of Israel had told
them about the Messenger sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam, which is still
recorded in Scripture today. They can deny all they want, but "within
a year, acording to the years of an hireling, and all the glory of
Kedar" failed before their very eyes, and they knew exactly what they
were seeing, from Isaiah.

was-salaam,
abujamal
--
astaghfirullahal-ladhee laa ilaha illa
howal-hayyul-qayyoom wa 'atoobu 'ilaihi

Rejoice, muslims, in martyrdom without fighting,
a Mercy for us. Be like the better son of Adam.
a***@yahoo.com
2006-02-04 05:45:28 UTC
Permalink
"1st, as already Arthur Jeffery in his "Foreign Vocabulary of the
Qur'an", Baroda 1938, p. 228, has remarked, "there seems to be no
evidence of the use of the word in Arabic earlier than the Qur'an". So
there is all the more no Arabic text prior to the alleged "revelation"
of the Koran in which "furqân" would have another meaning than
"salvation" or related concepts."

Language is "LIVING". Just because there is a lack of 'archaeological
evidence' regarding the word 'furqan' in pre-Islamic Arabic means
absolutely nothing. In fact, if we were to count the amount of words
found on the 'enscriptions' of Central Arabia and the Hijza prior to
the coming of Islam, and sometime afterwards, the dictionary of the
Arabic language would be a handful of words that would comprise a few
pages.

What does this mean?

The fact of the matter of is 'lack of evidence', especially when it
comes to linguistics, amounts to almost nothing. Language is an
ORGANIC PHENOMENON, and ORAL TRADITION IS THE PRIMARY MANNER IN WHICH
IT IS PRESERVED. This holds even more TRUE when it comes to a nation
like the Arabs, who were mainly illiterate.

This is precisely why revisionist theorists, among EVERY religious
faith, who rely solely on 'etymology' and a certain 'resemblance' of
the sound of words common to many languages make such outlandish that
Moses (AS) witnessed God on Moint Sinai in ETHIOPIA.

Further, etymology, as Yusuf Gersey pointed out, DOES NOT DEFINE
MEANING, but USAGE BY THE PEOPLE DOES. This is recognized by anybody
familiar with language.

"Leave these ridiculous theories and come back down to earth."

Imagine the foolishness of the person who says,

"What are you talking about? I am already on planet Earth."

These 'revisionist' theorists are so off-the-wall that they are
rejected in all scholarly circles, and very rarely do they get
attention, unless some un-educated journalist happens to publish a
report in some widespread publication, and the media gives it
attention. The sensation always ends once legitimate scholars are
consulted, leaving the gross speculations to die in the wind.

They reject anything that they deem fit, such as their rejection of
much of pre-Islamic poetry, so they can find some 'justification' for
their wild speculations.

"Furthermore in Surah 8:42, where reference is to "the day of the
furqan, the day when the two hosts met" it even is impossible to
understand "furqan" as "criterion" of "revelational scripture", but
makes good sense to understand it as "salvation".

Actually, it makes absolutely NO SENSE to understand it as salvation.
The idea of 'furqan, AS TESTIFIED TO BY ITS USAGE IN THE QURAN, is that
it sieves the truth from the false. It is a criterion in which this
'discernment' becomes clear. This is why, immediately after
proclaiming the Battle of Badr as the Day of Furqan, God Almighty
states:

Remember ye were on the hither side of the valley, and they on the
farther side, and the caravan on lower ground than ye. Even if ye had
made a mutual appointment to meet, ye would certainly have failed in
the appointment: BUT (THUS YE MET), THAT ALLAH MIGHT ACCOMPLISH A
MATTER ALREADY ENACTED; THAT THOSE WHO DIED MIGHT DIE AFTER A CLEAR
SIGN (HAD BEEN GIVEN), AND THOSE WHO LIVED MIGHT LIVE AFTER A CLEAR
SIGN (HAD BEEN GIVEN). And verily Allah is He Who heareth and knoweth
(all things).

Thus, the sifting of the people of people occured on this day, such
that the FOLLOWERS OF HAQQ WERE CLEARLY DISTINGUISHED FROM THE
FOLLOWERS OF BATIL. Those who perished, perished after perceiving the
clear signs, and those that survived, survived after perceiving the
clear signs.

This day was the actual blow to the Quraysh, when they lost 70 of their
leaders on Badr. In fact, this battle is what really what began the
ASCENDANCY OF ISLAM. The rest of the battles were attempts by the
Quraysh to RESTORE A LOST GLORY, which they never recovered. After
this battle, it was Abu Sufyan (R) who took on the reigns of leading
the fight against Muhammad (S), BECAUSE ALL THE MAJOR PLAYERS WERE
KILLED. Even Abu Lahab, who tried to escape the Battle, upon hearing
news of this loss, contracted a disease and died shortly thereafter.
His death was so humiliating even his sons feared to touch his dead
body. THE TRUTH WAS SIFTED FROM THE FALSE.

"I already had pointed to such an example of a totally misleading
instruction: the lengthy, non-fitting and obviously later inserted
verse Surah 74:31, which has no other aim than to solidify the
meanwhile traditional misunderstanding of the short
previous verse 74:30, which itself usually is misread as "Over it are
nineteen".

Actually, the only 'mis-reading' is done by Heger. The fact that the
unbelievers were 'picking straws' at descriptions of the unseen is
already known in Surah Baqarah. In the case of surah Baqarah, it was
'the parable of the fly', which is made in the context of the unique
nature of Paradise. As testified by the context of the Quran, this
instigation was actually being prompted by the People of the Book.
THUS, THERE IS NOTHING UNUSUAL IN THIS PORTION OF THE QURAN.

In fact, this style of elaboration is a common feature employed
elsewhere in the Quran, further substantiating the point.

In the above verse, the Quran addresses the same issue as Surah
Baqarah, but from the perspective of Hell.

The verse in questions begins with:

"Soon will I cast him into Hell-Fire!
And what will explain to thee what Hell-Fire is?
Naught doth it permit to endure, and naught doth it leave alone!-
Darkening and changing the colour of man!
Over it are Nineteen."

IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, GOD HAS CHOSEN 19 ANGELS TO MAINTAIN THE HELL,
which will not permit to endure anybody, nor will it leave anybody
alone. It becomes abundantly clear what instigated the response of the
Quran. The unbelievers began to mock this idea not once, but many
times. They often boasted about their 'numerical superiority'.

"O Muhammad, you claim Hell will do this to us, and that 19 angels
alone control US? You are saying that 19 angels will control a fire
that will continuously punish and and not let us endure. Even if we
were to go to Hell, our hosts would be enough."

Allah responds by saying:

"Thus doth Allah leave to stray whom He pleaseth, and guide whom He
pleaseth: and NONE CAN KNOW THE FORCES OF THY LORD EXCEPT HE and this
is no other than a warning to mankind." The fact that none "knows the
Host of the Lord" except He, is a COMMON THEME THROUGHOUT THE QURAN.
In Surah Iqra, God sarcastically remarks to the one whom boasts about
his 'numerical' superiority', that let him call his Hosts, and God will
call his.

The unbelievers have not grasped the reality of what they are mocking.
These angels are beyond anything one can imagine, thus they should take
this as a WARNING, not something to be made fun of.

The difference between the believer in the unseen and the disbeliever
is that, the believer finds nothing strange about matters such as the
Day of Judgement, and Paradise and Hell-Fire. The fundamental
difference of faith and disbelief is that the believer is willing to
accept realities that he cannot see, BUT ARE WELL TESTIFIED TO REASON.
On the other hand, the disbeliever will only believe when he sees Allah
descending from the clouds, with his angels accompanying him. But that
Day, his belief will not profit him.

Allah responds TO THE PETTY OBJECTIONS in both cases, in pretty much
the same manner.

"and We have fixed their number only as a trial for Unbelievers,- in
order that the People of the Book may arrive at certainty, and the
Believers may increase in Faith,- and that no doubts may be left for
the People of the Book and the Believers, and that those in whose
hearts is a disease and the Unbelievers may say, "What symbol doth
Allah intend by this ?" Thus doth Allah leave to stray whom He
pleaseth, and guide whom He pleaseth."

This is the same manner of which the response is addressed in Surah
Baqarah.

"Allah disdains not to use the similitude of things, lowest as well as
highest. Those who believe know that it is truth from their Lord; but
those who reject Faith say: "What means Allah by this similitude?" By
it He causes many to stray, and many He leads into the right path; but
He causes not to stray, except those who forsake (the path),"

Allah guides the people who want to be guided. It is the attitude
which determines whether a person will profit from the guidance given
by the Quran, and not anything else. The believers are INTENT on
understanding, while the questions of the unbelievers are motivated by
nothing but mockery.

Further, it becomes obvious, that just as the question referred to
earlier in Surah Baqarah WAS ALSO INSTIGATED BY THE AHL-KITAB, THIS ONE
WAS TOO:

"in order that the People of the Book may arrive at certainty... and
that no doubts may be left for the People of the Book"

As Allah says,

"Which army will save you from Ar-Rahman?"

If God's army was one angel, it would amount to enough to run Hell.
Gabriel, as even the People of the Book KNEW FULLY WELL revealing that
their question was nothing but persistent obstinancy, lifted the whole
town of Sodom and Gomorah up with ease, and flipped it upside down.
Thus, the Quran is subtly addressing these People of the Book that are
prompting the unbelievers to ask these questions, that they themselves
know the answers given by the Quran, and the truth of Muhammad (S) are
confirmed by their own scriptures. Do they not know that the guests of
Lot were enough to destroy the whole town of highway bandits and
sodomizers that were the towns of Sodom and Gomorrah?

"and that no doubts may be left for the People of the Book..."
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