Discussion:
The Grammatical Errors of the Koran
(too old to reply)
Robert
2005-11-11 01:57:26 UTC
Permalink
In a recently posted observation I stated that the Koran contains
grammatical errors. This was dismissed by a contributor as an old
criticism that had long ago been refuted by Muslim scholars. In fact he
supplied no refutation but to counter his claim I would like to quote
from the excellent book "Twenty-three Years" by the distinguished
Iranian writer, Ali Dashti, who was murdered in mysterious
circumstances at the beginning of the Iranian Revolution. He was well
qualified to write his account of Muhammad (which was only publishable,
after his death, in Beirut) because, as a young man, he had received
the full Koranic education of a Shia cleric. He maintained that there
are more than thirty grammatical errors in the Koran:

"The Qoran contains sentences which are incomplete and not fully
intelligible without aid of commentaries; foreign words, unfamiliar
Arabic words, and words used with other than their normal meaning;
adjectives and verbs inflected without observance of gender or number;
illogically and ungrammatically applied pronouns which sometimes have
no referrant; and predicates which in rhymed pasages are often remote
from their subjects." (p48)

The errors Dashti specifies are elementary and gross: no amount of
explanation or argument can dissolve them away. Islamic scholars
wishing to defend the perfection of the Koran are reduced to the
desperate stratagem of arguing that since the Koran is the literal Word
of God, it's the Koran that sets the standard of grammatical
correctness, and that we are wrong in regarding the specified errors as
faults. It seems that teachers in Arabic speaking countries should not
correct their pupils' work when they display the solecisms mentioned
by Dashti.

Dashti also refutes the Koran's claim that it is clear and in pure
Arabic.
a***@yahoo.com
2005-11-14 05:18:32 UTC
Permalink
Actually, it is absurd considering grammar ORIGINATED out of the Arabic
language, not the other way around. Grammar is developed by people
within the culture itself to help those OUTSIDE the cultural context to
understand the language. It is not developed first, and than people
learn learn the language. This is why the books of grammar were
written a hundred or so years AFTER THE QURAN. Foreign Muslims could
learn the Quran to some extent.

Also, a purely grammatical approach to understanding a language is
against principles of language itself. "Come down to earth." "Why
should, if I'm not in space?"
Anjum
2005-11-16 01:20:34 UTC
Permalink
X-No-Archive: yes
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Actually, it is absurd considering grammar ORIGINATED out of the Arabic
language, not the other way around.
This grammatical-error criticism of the Qur`an is borne out of
desperation. It is yet another attempt by the Islam-bashers to muddy
the water so that the light of the Qur`an can be dimmed and people can
be discouraged from approaching and benefiting from it.

In every era, the Islam-bashers tend to come out with a new argument
against the Qur`an.

Nevertheless, Dr. Abdel Haleem and others have dealt with this issue.
See the Islamic Awareness website. However, just like anything else,
the Islam-bashers will certainly come out with their rebuttels, and,
therefore, will go astray even farther.

I have yet to see a missionary post on SRI who did not have an agenda.
Saqib Virk
2005-11-14 05:28:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert
In a recently posted observation I stated that the Koran contains
grammatical errors. This was dismissed by a contributor as an old
criticism that had long ago been refuted by Muslim scholars. In fact he
supplied no refutation but to counter his claim I would like to quote
from the excellent book "Twenty-three Years" by the distinguished
Iranian writer, Ali Dashti,
SV
Excellent book? That is truly a joke. The book is written by a man with some
knowledge but little grasp of Islam or common sense. Parts of the book a
semi-intelligent Muslim child would be able to see through. Since it is
anti-Islam and anti-Muhammad in flavor the book has found some favor in the
West
and in particular among Internet Crusaders. Anyone quoting from the book
should not be taken too seriously. Dasthi was a fool.
Post by Robert
The errors Dashti specifies are elementary and gross
SV
That sentiment sums up Dashti's own book.

--
Peace,
Saqib Virk
Robert
2005-11-16 01:32:15 UTC
Permalink
Dashti was a distinguished writer and public figure in Iran. His
book is clearly distinguished even in translation. His upbringing,
culture and education were Islamic. He was clearly highly intelligent
and courageous. He rejects orthodox Islam, which is why you are so
immoderate in your abuse of him. He is in fact rather sympathetic to
Muhammad; he is certainly not an Islam-basher. I take it that "Internet
Crusader" is an insult. In what way can I be termed a crusader? - I
offer no violence; I merely use a public forum. Your insult does your
cause no good. When will Muslims learn to accept criticism?
Anjum
2005-11-14 05:22:28 UTC
Permalink
X-No-Archive: yes
Post by Robert
In a recently posted observation I stated that the Koran contains
grammatical errors. This was dismissed by a contributor as an old
criticism that had long ago been refuted by Muslim scholars. In fact he
supplied no refutation ...
You need to read responses to your posts carefully and then reflect
upon them.

You have been given the following refutations:

1. Dr. Abdel Haleem's book: "Understanding the Qur`an: Themes and
Styles", and

2. Articles at http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Q_Studies/, where
the chapter on this issue from the above-mentioned book is also there.
The one in the book may have more information in it.

This topic has also been discussed between an Islam-basher and Dr.
Saifullah on SRI in the past. You can search for those discussions.

If none of them corrects your error then nothing else will.

So we may leave you in your wandering and your rejection of the Word of
God: Al-Qur`an.

Then your fate is with God alone, who is Just and Most Merciful. He
knows your inner secrets and will deal with you appropriately. He also
does not overburden a self.

http://www.nuradeen.com
http://www.askonline.co.za
A Hirsi
2005-11-14 05:24:55 UTC
Permalink
Robert:

Keep what you currently have and let us (Muslims) keep our Quran and
let
Allah be the judge. There is no benefit arguing with one who has
already made up his mind.
Many were those who said unsavory things about Allah's Religion and
mocked his Messengers
but in the end they are answerable to Allah for all their actions.
Allah will deal with them
as He pleases.

Those who are opposed to the Truth (Islam) will resist the universal
message of Islam
until Allah guides them. I will urge for your sake and that of your
family to read and study the message of the Quran before attempting to
find "errors" in it. See whether the message moves your heart.

If after an honest study you are still not convinced then let those who
follow Islam follow their Religion peacefully and bid this boards
farewell so that they can spend their valuable time to further learn
about their religion instead of getting "entangled" with the likes of
you who seem to know everything.


We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of
messengers; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and
strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes
to you a messenger with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up
with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay! Holy Quran
2:87


Miserable is the price for which they have sold their souls, in that
they deny (the revelation) which Allah has sent down, in insolent envy
that Allah of His Grace should send it to any of His servants He
pleases: Thus have they drawn on themselves Wrath upon Wrath. And
humiliating is the punishment of those who reject Faith. Holy Quran
2:90

It is never the wish of those without Faith among the People of the
Book, nor of the Pagans, that anything good should come down to you
from your Lord. But Allah will choose for His special Mercy whom He
will - for Allah is Lord of grace abounding. 2:105

Quite a number of the People of the Book wish they could Turn you
(people) back to infidelity after ye have believed, from selfish envy,
after the Truth hath become Manifest unto them: But forgive and
overlook, Till Allah accomplish His purpose; for Allah Hath power over
all things. Holy Quran 2:109



Peace.

A Hirsi

"Waman athlamu mimmani iftara AAala Allahi kathiban aw kaththaba
bialhaqqi lamma jaahu alaysa fee jahannama mathwan lilkafireena
Waallatheena jahadoo feena lanahdiyannahum subulana wa-inna Allaha
lamaAAa almuhsineena" Holy Quran 29:68-69

"And who does more wrong than he who invents a lie against Allah or
rejects the Truth when it reaches him? Is there not a home in Hell for
those who reject Faith?
And those who strive in Our (cause),--We will certainly guide them to
our Paths: For verily Allah is with those who do right." Holy Quran
29:68-69
Zuiko Azumazi
2005-11-14 05:20:37 UTC
Permalink
"Robert" <***@onetel.com> wrote in message news:***@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

<snip> ...
Post by Robert
This was dismissed by a contributor as an old
criticism that had long ago been refuted by Muslim scholars. In fact he
supplied no refutation but to counter his claim ...
<snip> ...

Comment:-
Let's summarise, Robert informs us that when Bertrand Russell (the
distinguished British writer, sic) writes, this is, using Robert's words, "a
scurrilous attack on Christianity". Did Robert then supply any 'refutation'
to counter Russell's claims? But when Robert and his cohorts write in a
similar vein it's not "a scurrilous attack" on Islam. Which just, once more,
demonstrates how many cheeks does a Janus have?

<snip> ...
Post by Robert
I would like to quote from the excellent book ... there
are more than thirty grammatical errors in the ...
<snip> ...

Comment:-
Robert says he has arrived at his 'methodical' conclusions based on his own
deep independent research from a variety of sources "in public libraries"
and the "internet". But then he selects one source, not his own study, as
the definitive authority on the Qur'an. Doesn't this really mean he has not
studied the Qur'an in any depth himself? Isn't his 'claim to knowledge'
solely based on blindly accepting someone else's authority?

Of course, he remains absolutely silent about the many "grammatical errors"
and criticisms of biblical origin, as adequately demonstrated at this link:-

http://www.google.com/search?as_q=grammatical+errors+&num=10&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=biblical

Robert, now tell us truthfully, how many "grammatical errors" are there in
the Catholic, or 'Vulgate', version of the Bible? More than 30 or less?

Shouldn't subscribers, Muslim or otherwise, be wary of superficial
conclusions based on such a dubious 'methodology'?
--
Peace
--
To illustrate a principle, you must exaggerate much and you must omit much.
[Walter Bagehot]

Zuiko Azumazi
***@hotmail.com
Robert
2005-11-16 01:46:10 UTC
Permalink
You raise many points. As regards Russell's definition of faith, I
was merely making an observation. I myself provided an alternative
analysis of faith for readers to consider.

I described Russell's move in his account of faith as scurrilous,
because anyone who looks into the philosophical discussion of faith
down the centuries (and Russell was very well read), would know that
his definition was false. Russell knew it was false but wanted to load
the dice against Christianity right from the start. "Scurrilous"
implies dishonest, as Russell's account certainly was - he was
notoriously mischievous. There is nothing scurrilous in what I have
written about Islam: I have offered reasoned arguments in temperate
terms, being intent on establishing the truth. If I have failed I will
be only too pleased to benefit from your corrections.

Who are my cohorts? I am an independent person.

I have never described my reading as deep.

I didn't offer Dashti as the definitive authority on the Koran; only
as a distinguished writer, well-trained in Arabic, and who was well
able to recognise grammatical errors. Dashti gives a sympathetic
account of Muhammad.

I cannot claim to have studied the Koran in depth; that is a
lifetime's undertaking. However, where my inadequacies have affected
the validity of my arguments or the truth of my assertions, I rely upon
you to correct me.

Where do I claim knowledge that is not mine? We are all of us
dependent on authorities in most areas of life: we are not in a
position to confirm the truth of very many of our beliefs for
ourselves.

The question of errors in the Christian Scriptures is a diversion:
the Koran is the issue and Muslims claim it is the literal Word of God,
word for word. Now God doesn't make mistakes, so there should be no
errors in the Koran; but there are and nobody has said anything in
refutation.

It's not relevant, but if you are interested in the Catholic
position, the Church does not teach the verbal inerrancy of Scripture
(though many Protestants believe this doctrine). The Church teaches
that the books of the Bible are human documents subject to the
limitations of language and culture etc. The sacred writers were
inspired as persons, not as writing machines. There are errors and
there are inconsistencies, but these in no way invalidate the Christian
message.
Zuiko Azumazi
2005-11-17 15:34:26 UTC
Permalink
"Robert" <***@onetel.com> wrote in message news:***@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
<snip. ...
Post by Robert
You raise many points. As regards Russell's definition of faith, I
was merely making an observation. I myself provided an alternative
analysis of faith for readers to consider. ...
<snip> ...

Comment:-
I'm sure that most subscribers, Muslim or otherwise, out of intellectual
curiosity, would like know Russell's definition of faith, can you cite it
for us?

<snip>...
Post by Robert
I described Russell's move in his account of faith as scurrilous,
because anyone who looks into the philosophical discussion of faith
down the centuries (and Russell was very well read), would know that
his definition was false.
<snip> ...

Comment:-
Most subscribers, Muslim or otherwise, have no knowledge of this particular
'faith definition', so how can we judge its validity unless you provide it.
Wouldn't such a comprehensive 'faith definition' also apply to all religious
faiths, including Islam? Or are you by implication asserting that
Christianity is the only faith?

<snip> ...
Post by Robert
"Scurrilous" implies dishonest, as Russell's account certainly was - he
was
Post by Robert
notoriously mischievous. ... There is nothing scurrilous in what I have
written about Islam ...
<snip> ...

Comment:-
"Scurrilous" can used in a multitude of senses. Usually it expresses
offensive reproach. Its natural synonyms are "abusive", "insulting",
"opprobrious", and, "scornful". None of which really implies the "dishonest"
epithet. Although, I would anticipate that most subscribers, Muslim or
otherwise, would deem your frequent posts as being both scurrilous and
mischievous (i. e. badly behaved). You may not think it but that's what is
being understood by the recipients. Don't you understand or read the
responses you are receiving?

<snip> ...
Post by Robert
... I have offered reasoned arguments in temperate
terms, being intent on establishing the truth. ...
<snip> ...

Comment:-
Are you trying to suggest, as a de facto Catholic apologist, that your
participation in SRI is based on some notional idea of haughty academic
detachment and disinterest? How can you arrive at the objective truth of
anything if you have dogmatically made up your mind beforehand? Haven't you
stated elsewhere that Catholicism is "The Truth"? Then isn't being
intellectually dishonest to say that you are "being intent on establishing
the truth"?

<snip> ...
Post by Robert
Who are my cohorts? I am an independent person.
<snip> ...

Comment:-
Your cohorts are all those superficial people who for whatever reason want
to undermine Islam. Isn't it correct that you haven't cited one positive
instance in support of Islamic teaching? How can any devout Catholic
honestly state they are independent and not part of the Holy Roman
communion? Isn't that tantamount to a denial of faith?

<snip> ...
Post by Robert
I have never described my reading as deep.
<snip> ...

Comment:-
Subscribers already know that. What they don't understand is why you can't
"suspend judgement" until you are more knowledgeable.

<snip> ...
--
Peace
--
In times of profound change, the learners inherit the earth, while the
learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no
longer exists"
[Eric Hoffer]

Zuiko Azumazi
***@hotmail.com
susan
2005-11-18 20:52:08 UTC
Permalink
Just like, I, who is Arab, can not judge The English language of
Shakespere as not godd and hase grammatical errors.
Also, neither English, Japanese or Persian persson have the authority
to judge Arabic poetry or Quraan of having grammatical errors.
The Arabic language is the oldest language of Mankind.
It contains at least 50 times the words in The biggest English
dictionary, even if you include old-English words from when ever the
Germans came to the seen in 400 AD.
The Arabic words are founds in Egyptian civilization words, Ebla
civilization which was destroyed 2400 BC.
Zuiko Azumazi
2005-11-20 05:22:01 UTC
Permalink
"susan" <***@popmail.com> wrote in message news:***@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

Salaam Susan,

<snip> ...
Post by susan
The Arabic language is the oldest language of Mankind.
It contains at least 50 times the words in the biggest English
dictionary...
<snip> ...

Comment:-
What has your response got to do with my earlier thread? I'm not entirely
sure if this whole 'nationalistic' diatribe in this post is directly
relevant to Islam (moderators take note). What has the English language got
to do with anything other than its the lingua franca used in SRI?

However, I'm curious about where you got these misleading historical facts
concerning the Arabic language? Can you cite any competent Muslim Arab
historian or linguist that supports your bold assertions?

Out of general interest, how many other Muslim subscribers in SRI hold this
historical viewpoint about the Arabic language? Have Muslim subscribers not
heard of the "Hamito-Semitic Language" family that includes Arabic?
--
Peace
--
Allah is one but Islam is a mosaic. The Muslim world is a linguistic tower
of Babel, an ethnic patchwork, a geographical puzzle and a political
kaleidoscope offering a picture of extraordinary doctrinal diversity.
[Slimane Zéghidour]

Zuiko Azumazi
***@hotmail.com
d***@untiredwithloving.org
2005-11-14 05:20:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert
In a recently posted observation I stated that the Koran contains
grammatical errors.
Salaam Robert please post one by one and I would like to spin my tale
and find out what is going on!
Post by Robert
This was dismissed by a contributor as an old
criticism that had long ago been refuted by Muslim scholars. In fact he
supplied no refutation but to counter his claim I would like to quote
from the excellent book "Twenty-three Years" by the distinguished
Iranian writer, Ali Dashti,
Look I am Iranian, we are one cunning deceptive individuals and nation.
Mr. Dashti or whomeve you like to qoute, are not sources you should use
to build arguments upon. If he is Shiite and from Iran, this means his
knowledge of Qur'anlic Arabic is badly compromised. Why? The Shiite
scholars do not teach publically, and what is taught to the public, Mr
Dashti types are of inferior nature.
Post by Robert
after his death, in Beirut) because, as a young man, he had received
the full Koranic education of a Shia cleric.
Shiite Cleric do not receive full Qur'anic education. The ones that
have full education are called Ayatullah, Allameh or Sheikhul Islam and
so on. A shiite cleric is a person performing marriages and what not
like a pastor.
Post by Robert
"The Qoran contains sentences which are incomplete
Incomplete sentences are allowed in Arabic grammar e.g. there are
sentences that have no verb all there is a known in what is called
MASDAR form to indicate perpetuity please see one such incomplete
sentence and what it means:
http://www.untiredwithloving.org/qurtubi_1_1.html here PRAISE FOR ALLAH
is a verb-less sentence indicating perpetuity of the action. This
seemingly grammatical problem is not specific to Qur'an and it is all
over Arabic literatre before and after Islam.
Post by Robert
and not fully
intelligible without aid of commentaries;
Qur'an as a word in Arabic means something coming out of the mouth
meaning from the heart to the mouth (See Itqan Suyut). Its meanings
they are to be uncovered as SECRETS by the human heart and mind. The
concept of machine-readable scripture, or robotic spirituality, are
the fallacy of Western thinking and it is not shared not just by Islam
but by most Eastern religions who require the human being as an
important component of the Divine Revealation.
Post by Robert
foreign words,
Arabic allows for introduction of foreign words and there is a full
cataloque of them e.g. Lisanul Arab. This has nothing to do with the
Qur'an. These words can be introduced into the Arabic language and that
is why it is very rich. They were introduced from Farsi, Ethiopiean
language prior to Islam.
Post by Robert
unfamiliar Arabic words
Please give examples.
Post by Robert
and words used with other than their normal meaning;
But in most languages the sea of something means spiritual immersing
not an actual sea billowing what is the point?
Post by Robert
adjectives and verbs inflected without observance of gender or number;
Yes there are examples of gender violation please see:
http://www.untiredwithloving.org/haqqi_light.html#oil this is the
example of gender violation that is not specific to Qur'an I included
the poetry that also shows the EXCEPTIONS TO THE GRAMMAR carry SPECIFIC
SEMANTICS i.e. when in certain cases an Arab speaker is allowed to
violate the grammar, this violation indicates another meaning as
opposed to the syntactal direct meaning.

Many arabic words, independant of Qur'an, have both genders. Most Arabs
and people like Dashti dont even know this fact.
Post by Robert
illogically and ungrammatically applied pronouns which sometimes have
no referrant;
Give an example. Love to read the ILLOGICAL something.
Post by Robert
and predicates which in rhymed pasages are often remote
from their subjects." (p48)
Please give an example.
Post by Robert
The errors Dashti specifies are elementary and gross: no amount of
explanation or argument can dissolve them away.
you are incorrect, Qur'an is revealed through SEVEN DIALECTS of Arabic
meaning seven large tribes who spoke Arabic differently. The so called
GRAMMAR that you talk about is NON-EXISTANT. The analytical formal
system of Arabic grammar was codified long after the prophet's death by
a Persian called SAYBAWIEH (Scent of the Apple) and prior to his book
there was no such an archive called ARABIC GRAMMAR. So when someone
says Qur'an violates Arabic grammar they are silly, there are several
dialects and grammars and vocabularis of seven Arab nations in the
Qur'an, with no formal grammar, all in oral tradition developed over
several thousand years even prior to the advent of prophet Abraham
peace be upon him.

This seven dialect, their pronouncians, their grammatical differences,
their diverse vocabulary is now fully archived and one can track every
word/phrase of Qur'an to any of the dialects and examine.

I ASSURE YOU DASHTI HAD NO SUCH EDUCATION.
Post by Robert
Islamic scholars
wishing to defend the perfection of the Koran are reduced to the
desperate stratagem of arguing that since the Koran is the literal Word
of God,
These are your words, typical arm-chair western critic who reads the
titles of books and makes final and profound judgements.
Post by Robert
it's the Koran that sets the standard of grammatical
correctness,
PRIOR DURING AND AFTER Qur'an there was no GRAMMAR as what today we
understand. How could Qur'an violate a grammar that was not there.
There were large group of loosely connected CONSTRUCTIONS of arabic
phrases that was orally maintained for thousands of years.
Post by Robert
and that we are wrong in regarding the specified errors as
faults.
GO ahead, see if we stop you. I believe Johnson killed Kennedy and what
is wrong for me believing that. I also believe in UFOs and I also
believe Rupert Murdoch is a robot planted by the outerspace creatures
to control the earht's satellites.
Post by Robert
It seems that teachers in Arabic speaking countries should not
correct their pupils' work when they display the solecisms mentioned
by Dashti.
I also believe the teachers in America should not discourage their
students from reading Marvel Comics.
Post by Robert
Dashti also refutes the Koran's claim that it is clear and in pure
Arabic.
Well 'REFUTING' is the cancer of middle eastern mentality, Dashti right
now can refute all he wished in presence of Allah.

I suggest to you to learn the foundamentals of research, as taught in
the western universities, and focus on delivering a sound argument
rather than cut & paste from an unknown book. Pick up all points of
view, pros and cons, as do the people who made Tafsir for Qur'an and
properly formulate problematic areas as did scholars like Razi.

Or else dont waste your time and find a nice lady to settle down and
forget all about the gramamtical errors of Qur'an

--DARA
Robert
2005-11-16 01:41:12 UTC
Permalink
Dear Dara,

I'm charmed to take up the discussion with an Iranian
lady. I do not possess Dashti's book and must write from memory. Of
course I do not know the technicalities of Shiite religious training,
but I remember from his book that he was extensively trained in Iraq
and had a thorough knowlege of Arabic. Also he is a very distinguished
man in literary and in public life. His book is very fine, even in
translation.

I am sure Dashti knew which incomplete sentences are permissible.
The situation is the same in English, but the fact remains that some
incomplete sentences are definitely serious errors.

I don't know of any Western ideas of machine-readable scriptures,
but as regards the issue of intelligibility, the Koran claims that it
is clear; Dashti cites ways in which it is not.

The introduction of foreign words into Arabic: the early Muslim
scholars found many words in the Koran that they did not understand;
key religious terms came from Hebrew. Again the Koran claims it is
clear and in pure Arabic. It's a fault in language to use foreign words
that have not yet become accepted into the language: it shows lack of
consideration for the reader.

"Other than their usual meaning": this means precisely that, not
metaphors.

Gender violation: it's clear that Dashti was referring to crude
errrors.

I'm sorry I can't give examples; I rely entirely on Dashti and his
evident intelligence and integrity. You seem not to have heard of him -
I'm surprised.

Languages have grammars before they are written down - otherwise it
would be impossible to write them down. There are well- and
ill-constructed sentences even in preliterate languages and the notion
of grammatical faults applies to them. Of course in everyday
conversation we fall short of the grammaticality of written language,
but we know how to speak correctly when we have to. The Koran is an
instance of "when we have to" and no doubt is generally careful of
grammar. It's against this background that the faults stand out.

Your posting slips into incoherence; your advice on how to do
research is clear, but unnecessary. I have taught in a university.
Soc.religion.islam is not the place for academic papers.

Thank you, but I have settled down with a very nice lady.
a***@yahoo.com
2005-11-17 15:36:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert
Languages have grammars before they are written down - otherwise it
would be impossible to write them down. There are well- and
ill-constructed sentences even in preliterate languages and the notion
of grammatical faults applies to them.
This statement is utterly absurd. Grammar is an attempt to IDENTIFY A
PATTERN THAT EXISTS IN A SPOKEN LANGUAGE. Thus, the primary way to
determine the meaning of a text is by USAGE OF THE PEOPLE. Further,
the Quranic language possesses the usage of the best of the Arabic
language, i.e. its poetry. And everybody knows poetry, let alone the
Quran, observes a style that is not necessarily what is spoken
FORMALLY.

To argue something as invalid or incoherent in the Quran, one would
have to argue based upon usage. But since you cannot give examples, it
clearly indicates you have no idea what you are talking about. You'd
take Dashti's words no matter what, simply because you have an agenda.
d***@untiredwithloving.org
2005-11-17 15:36:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert
Dear Dara,
I'm charmed to take up the discussion with an Iranian
lady. I do not possess Dashti's book and must write from memory. Of
course I do not know the technicalities of Shiite religious training,
but I remember from his book that he was extensively trained in Iraq
and had a thorough knowlege of Arabic. Also he is a very distinguished
man in literary and in public life. His book is very fine, even in
translation.
Salaam Rob I hope we are humoring each other sometimes for laughs and
please dont take me the wrong way.

I have never heard of Dashti and believe me I search this literature to
death for books either in Arabic or Farsi, had he been sooooooooo
distinguished I would have heard of him, then again...

Shiite scholars have advancted in many philosophical spheres and they
have all forms of new and ancient teachings, some of it really modern
and advance, however they do not share them with the public, not Mr.
Dashti for sure.

They are secretive about these teachings, as are many Sufis and other
such groups amongst Muslims.
Post by Robert
I am sure Dashti knew which incomplete sentences are permissible.
HOW CAN YOU BE SURE?
Post by Robert
The situation is the same in English, but the fact remains that some
incomplete sentences are definitely serious errors.
English is a SCRIPT language, it is a WRITTEN language, it was the
COURT language of the kings. It was not a SPOKEN language as is Arabic.
Arabic is a PHONETIC language, the scripting is a secondary attribute
of the language.

In Arabic the sounds are form more important than the letters or
words!!!!

INCOMPLETE sentences in Arabic are allowed and used in both Qur'an and
other places such as poetry and magazines.
Post by Robert
I don't know of any Western ideas of machine-readable scriptures,
To a western thinker a scripture from God is the same as say READERS'
DIGEST!!! To us Qur'an is not! When you read Qur'an something happens
to you inside, outside and something happens to your surroundings.Human
himself is a part of the reading of the Qur'an as opposed to somethign
a machine can reprint or turn into speech.
Post by Robert
The introduction of foreign words into Arabic: the early Muslim
scholars found many words in the Koran that they did not understand;
This is NOT true, what is true is after the third generation of the
Muslim scholars, we see a sudden drop in knowledge. But some words of
Qur'an was unknown to the scholars. For the most part that means the
word points to an object out of this universe.
Post by Robert
key religious terms came from Hebrew.
WHICH ONES PLEASE SPELL THEM OUT!
Post by Robert
It's a fault in language to use foreign words
that have not yet become accepted into the language: it shows lack of
consideration for the reader.
"Other than their usual meaning": this means precisely that, not
metaphors.
METAPHOR in Arabic mans MAJAAZ and the language of Arabs is
well-endowed with mecahnisms for MAJAAZ again this requires throrough
study of the language.
Post by Robert
Gender violation: it's clear that Dashti was referring to crude
errrors.
WHERE ARE THESE ERROR please tell me the verse numbers? Why I ask: I am
researching the gender of all words of Qur'an, I have all the words of
Qur'an and their gender and the gender violation and sematics and I
know of not one instance as you are describing. If you want I can point
you to those Arabic books.
Post by Robert
I'm sorry I can't give examples; I rely entirely on Dashti and his
evident intelligence and integrity. You seem not to have heard of him -
I'm surprised.
Not a clue about him. It is ok you cannot give examples, and I feel you
mean well. how about I give you examples, in future INSHALLAH and you
see for yourself.
Post by Robert
Languages have grammars before they are written down
Not true about NATURAL LANGUAGES, you are confusing say a computer
language like java with English. Most Natural Languages (NL) are
ADAPTIVE, they are able to learn from a corpus of vocabulary and
grammar and be TRAINED with new instances of human intervention.

- otherwise it
Post by Robert
would be impossible to write them down.
I recommed to you to pick up any text on NLP:Natural Language
Processing. Most of your concepts here are inaccurate.

There are well- and
Post by Robert
ill-constructed sentences even in preliterate languages and the notion
of grammatical faults applies to them.
Again this is not correct. Please see any NLP on languge of intuits or
some other such odd language.


The Koran is an
Post by Robert
instance of "when we have to" and no doubt is generally careful of
grammar. It's against this background that the faults stand out.
have no idea what this means.
Post by Robert
Your posting slips into incoherence;
True. Please see my actual web pages I have posted here and there, the
Nur (Light) on the gender and the recent Sabians.

your advice on how to do
Post by Robert
research is clear, but unnecessary. I have taught in a university.
Soc.religion.islam is not the place for academic papers.
I was just humoring you. Sorry
Post by Robert
Thank you, but I have settled down with a very nice lady.
Phewwwwwwwwwww: Al-Hamdulil-Lah

I am very interested on this topic. The more we can talk about it the
better. Please feel free to communicate about the language of Qur'an
here or email me.

--DARA
Robert
2005-11-18 21:13:48 UTC
Permalink
Dear Dara,

It's such a relief to come across a correspondent who
isn't accusing me of being offensive! You evidently have an academic
background - perhaps that explains it!

Dashti has a reputation among Western academics, and believe me his
book "Twenty-three years" is distinguished even in English translation.
I admired this book 15 years ago before the interest in Islam in the
West fuelled by 9/11 had begun. He is sceptical but not unsympathetic
towards Muhammad, but I don't admire him simply because of that. He was
also a public figure in pre-revolutionary Iran; I forget the details.

This is developing into a personal letter, so I had better turn to
an emaail.
Nima Rezai
2005-11-14 05:20:38 UTC
Permalink
Robert wrote:

[Ali Dashti]
He was well qualified to write his account of Muhammad (which was
only publishable, after his death, in Beirut) because, as a young
man, he had received the full Koranic education of a Shia cleric.
I doubt this. The fact that he spent some years in Iraq and had some
Mullah education does not qualify him particularly.

In Iran itself we have a many Shia clerics with much "fuller" education than
Dashti who make weird detailed claims about the length of the feet
of "Dajjals" donkey.

Dashtis book itself contains many errors.
N.
susan
2005-11-16 01:20:35 UTC
Permalink
Also Dashti is not Arabic to make judgement on Arabic Language.
Only people from Zarazostran back grounds had claimed in the history of
Islam that Quraan is hard to understand and need to be interpreted in
way of internal.
We did not find any other nation in the world Somali, Indonisian,
Bangladesh, Nigeria and so many, never complained of the Quran. Why?
What is the Answer.
Robert
2005-11-16 01:41:03 UTC
Permalink
How do you know how full Dashti's education was? His book is impressive
evidence of the man's intellectual and moral distinction.
John Eritsu
2005-11-16 01:32:16 UTC
Permalink
Salaam,

It was a delight to read this thread, and I am extremely joyful to see the
responses to a poster who a priori was in an attack mode. Most Muslim
posters in this thread, with the possible exception of one, have performed
better than posters at any forum. I would like to congratulate them all.
Zuiko Azumazi
2005-11-17 15:26:31 UTC
Permalink
"John Eritsu" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:dlbeog$cbs$***@domitilla.aioe.org...

Salaam John,
... Most Muslim
posters in this thread, with the possible exception of one, have performed
better than posters at any forum. I would like to congratulate them all.
<snip> ...

Comment:-
Don's keep us in suspense! Which Muslim was the odd one out in your opinion?

Does this imply that the Muslim 'exception proves the rule'? :-)
--
Peace
--
Allah is one but Islam is a mosaic. The Muslim world is a linguistic tower
of Babel, an ethnic patchwork, a geographical puzzle and a political
kaleidoscope offering a picture of extraordinary doctrinal diversity.
[Slimane Zéghidour]

Zuiko Azumazi
***@hotmail.com
Saqib Virk
2006-01-19 14:45:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert
Dashti has a reputation among Western academics, and believe me his
book "Twenty-three years" is distinguished even in English translation.
SV
Is Robert to be believed? The book is written by someone with little grasp
of Islam or common sense. Parts of the book a semi-intelligent Muslim child
would be able to see through. Since it is anti-Islam and anti-Muhammad in
flavor the book has found some favor in the West and in particular among
Internet Crusaders.
Post by Robert
I admired this book 15 years ago before the interest in Islam in the
West fuelled by 9/11 had begun. He is sceptical but not unsympathetic
towards Muhammad, but I don't admire him simply because of that.
SV
Maybe Robert so admires Dashti for the following quotes from his book:

"About the lives of Jesus and Moses, let alone Abraham and Noah, whatever
information we possess is clouded by dusts of popular mythology and
religious and racial prejudice." [pg. 120]

"Throughout the Old Testament, the God who is presented to us is an
imperious being, quick to anger, unwilling to relent, and avid for praise
and worship...Throughout the Old Testament, God is similarly portrayed as a
capricious, exacting and relentless tyrant." [pg. 141,142]

Perhaps Robert has no problem with these quotes... more likely he doesn't
care since he so loves Dashti's ignorant attacks on Muhammad... perhaps even
more likely Robert has no clue and has never read the book in question.

--
Peace,
Saqib Virk
Robert
2006-01-20 05:17:48 UTC
Permalink
I reply to Saqib Virk Jan 19

Your charaterization of Dashti's work is absurd: he is evidently a
distinguished writer with a deserved international reputation.

I don't share his opinions of the Bible; but I understand them: his
kind of scepticism is familiar. I quoted his opinion on the flaws at
the level of language in the Koran: the incomplete sentences, the
unintelligibility, the foreign words and the gross grammatical
mistakes. His religious opinions have no bearing on his ability to
judge these. I never mentioned his attacks on Muhammad, which can't be
called ignorant since Dashti had an elaborate religious education in
Iraq.
Saqib Virk
2006-01-25 10:43:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert
Your charaterization of Dashti's work is absurd: he is evidently a
distinguished writer with a deserved international reputation.
SV
Dashti may have been a distinguished writer, known for his works of fiction
and translations of Persian poetry, but his understanding of Islam was
practically nil. You enjoy his nonsense only because it meshes so well with
your own hatred of Islam.
--
Peace,
Saqib Virk
g***@clouded.com
2006-01-25 13:53:15 UTC
Permalink
Why does it take more than 5 days to get something like this posted?

Something about the mods??
Post by Robert
I reply to Saqib Virk Jan 19
Your charaterization of Dashti's work is absurd: he is evidently a
distinguished writer with a deserved international reputation.
Bism Allah, Al-Rahmen, Al-Raheem,

Asalaam Alaikum,

re: "23 Years: A Study of the Prophetic Career of Mohammad" by 'Ali
Dashti ISBN 1-56859-029-6

Since this book has come up as a topic, and I have read it, I thought,
insha Allah, I'd write my impressions.

I ordered the book sight unseen because I like reading seerah and I
liked the title. Its kind of dramatic.

Dashti appears to have been born Muslim, but according to the
translator's introduction it appears he rejected Islam for
"patriotism" and established a newspaper called "Red Dawn". This was
in the 1920s.

Immediately, it seems safe to assume Dashti was a socialist, most
likely entranced by the Russian revolution in 1917. So, he might have
been an outright atheist. He must have been active in Soviet Socialist
issues because he was invited to Russia to celebrate the 10th
anniversary of the revolution.

Given this, I recall reading that there is a body of literature giving
Marxist-socialist interpretations of Muhammad's life. Dashti's book
appears to be one of these interpretations. Indeed, he compares Lenin
to Muhammad early in the book. (p. 8)

Interestingly, he also compares Muhammad to other social conquerors
and warriors such as Alexander, Caesar, Napoleon, Hitler, Cyrus,
Chengiz Khan and Timor. Now, he says that Muhammad was greater than
they, but only because Muhammad "made his way into history" without
the benefit of a strong armed force and strong public opinion. I found
it odd that one would not compare Muhammad to other religious leaders
such as Buddha, or Jesus, or Moses, or even Lao Tzu. This must give us
pause to question the author's perspective on events. (Especially now
that we know Marxist-Leninism was a bit of a failure.)

He starts in a way that piqued my interest as he objected to the
Muslim tendency "to turn this man into an imaginary superhuman being,
a sort of God in human clothes, and have generally ignored the ample
evidence of his humanity." I could relate to this!

He immediately launches into the issues surrounding the hadith
literature and other Muslim accounts of Muhammad-- the possibility
that some things found in the literature are self-evidently pious
stories, not biographical-historical stories. (Such issues are often
heatedly discussed by today's Muslims.) Dashti mercilessly ridicules,
for instance, the hadith telling of Muhammad's birth and Night
Journey, citing Muslim religious bias as being responsible for
creating what are in essence myths, fantasies and fairy-stories.

He gives an appearance of fairness by indicating that conversely,
Western Christian writers present a negative picture of Muhammad due
to their own religious biases. So, Dashti says that neither group was
"capable of objective study of the facts" due to religious bias. For
instance, a view of Muhammad as "a liar, impostor, adventurer,
power-seeker, and lecher" is not supportable and due to Western
Christian bias.

After some preemptive praise of Muhammad he begins his story.

Right off, given his condemnation of both Muslim and Christian
accounts of Muhammad as not being based upon "objective facts" he
totally does the exact same thing:

"What MOST offended the Meccan chiefs was that this call.... came from
a man of lower status than themselves." (emphasis mine)

This cannot possibly be an objective fact.

To encounter this so soon after his introduction gave me pause. How he
read their minds so well I do not know. While this may have been part
of the Meccan chiefs' rejection of Muhammad's message, to say it is
what MOST offended is a huge stretch, it would seem, and not at all an
objective fact. He does this mind-reading trick quite a bit.

Another example of this is in his dismissal of the story of the Night
Journey. Rather than actually exploring the stories he merely writes:

"it is obvious the Prophet did not say such things and that these
childish fables are figments of the imaginations of simple-minded
people who conceived of the divine order as a replica of the court of
their own king or ruler."

I found this stunningly banal.

First, it is NOT obvious, much less an objective fact, that Muhammad
did not describe the experience of the Night Journey as has been
recorded in the hadith literature.

And indeed, another interpretation might be: "It is obvious the
Prophet had an ineffable experience of The Transcendent-- accounts of
which are found in religious literature-- and described that
experience in a way the people could understand."

This is actually more reasonable than Dashti's statement, because we
know there are people who have recounted ineffable experiences of The
Transcendent. So, even though Dashti wants to reduce the stories down
to psycho-social dynamics, he doesn't really even do such a good job
with that, because he doesn't really seem to be aware of the breadth
of psychological literature on such things as mystic experience, as
well as other topics I'll not outline here.

Second, Dashti WILL use the hadith literature when it suits his
purpose, for instance, in describing Muhammad as shy, or as mending
his own clothes he uses hadith. He uses it for his whole story, of
course! He does not explore why he would reject one hadith and not the
other. One might think he rejects anything that smacks of the
non-ordinary, but he seems to accept the hadith regarding the account
of the beginning of the revelation-- which is certainly as
non-ordinary as the Night Journey. So why he ridicules one and not the
other is not real clear. Though it IS clear he rejects the idea that
anything supernatural is happening.

He also uses the hadith to compare Muhammad to famous conquerors as
mentioned above. For instance, during negotiations with the Medinians
before the hejra, Dashti quotes hadith. Muhammad is asked how
committed he will be to the Medinian tribes over his own, "On the
contrary. Blood, blood, destruction, destruction! I shall be yours and
you shall be mine. I shall be at war with those at war with you and at
peace with those at peace with you." Dashti writes: "The repetition of
the words 'blood' and 'destruction' brings to mind the statement of
the famous French revolutionary Jean Paul Marat, 'I want blood'".

Uh, even I can tell the hadith's exclaimed oath is not at all like
Marat's desire.

So, Dashti did not impress me as a very broadly based writer or
thinker, and he was not going to actually *explore* the issues. As a
Marxist-Leninist thinker he is not aware of the transcendent, and does
not think it is of importance to human life. That is a huge oversight
and deficit when looking at religious texts, behaviors and issues.

His socialist leanings to not serve him well in this endeavor, for the
book comes off as a form of mere-- and transparent-- anti-Muslim
rhetoric. So entranced with "the West" and Marxist thought, Dashti
seems to have unreflectively swallowed and regurgitated anti-Muslim
interpretations of Muhammad which are familiar to many today, and are
recognized as being anti-Muslim misinterpretations of Muslim history.

It would appear that in spite of Dashti's upbringing as a Muslim his
understanding of theology was very elementary. For instance, he is
very confused about Allah's role in guidance or misguidance of the
human, which is tied to the issue of "destiny" or Allah's measuring
out of good and evil. i.e. "If Allah so willed, all would believe."
So, says Dashti, is it God's fault people do NOT believe? And so then
how could punishment be just?

I'm not going to say this is not a subtle theological issue. All I'm
saying is Dashti's amazed confusion over this aspect of tawheed points
to his poor grasp of Muslim thought, in spite of his having been
raised Muslim.

Dashti completely fails to understand the very idea of "a text" and
takes great exception to the Qur'anic challenge to "produce a surah
like it."

First-- and this is amazing to me-- he writes on p. 47-48 "Non-Moslem
scholars have found numerous grounds for questioning the
intelligibility and eloquence of the Qur'an, and Moslem scholars have
concurred in so far as they have found that the Qor'an needs
interpretation."

Uh, EVERY text, and indeed every thing the human experiences, needs
interpretation. Its what the human does-- interpret meaning. With one
sentence, Dashti throws himself to the winds of irrelevance. Indeed,
it is in interpretation that one discovers the infinite
intelligibility and sublime eloquence so strongly attested to by
libraries of Muslim literature--- literature that is just so easily
ignored, it would seem, by Dashti, in favor of a fascination with the
non-Muslim literature which he seems to simply swallow whole.

He cites-- so familiar to us-- the idea that at times the Qur'anic
text is not grammatical, unfamiliar words are used, and other
"aberrations of language." Aside from the fact that he does not
explore the actual Muslim literature on the Qur'anic textual form, he
completely ignores the evidence of the profound impact the language
had on Muhammad's contemporaries-- reflected in the Qur'an itself as
accusations of spellbinding words-- and as attested to by
Arabic-knowing Muslims across time and cultures. What Dashti-- in a
way indicative of a banal lack of imagination-- doesn't recognize is
that the Qur'an is a *new* and *unique* form of language use.

Oddly, he DOES say this "... the Qor'an is indeed unique and
wonderful. There was no precedent for it...." So, he says it, but
doesn't really understand what he is saying!

(This is similar to sri poster Heger's insistence that the Qur'anic
use of language "destroys" [willfully?] old forms of poetry. No. It is
a new and unique form of language use.)

Dashti's poor grasp of Muslim thought, and credulity in light of
"western" and Marxist (and perhaps Enlightenment) thought thus leads
him towards a portrayal of Muhammad not just as human, but as all too
human. That is, as a person who acted out of questionable and
less-than-noble motivations.

Exactly what anti-Muslim literature does.

For instance, he puts forth the idea-- most of us have seen it
before-- that with the power that came from the establishment of the
Medinian State Muhammad's personality makes a drastic change.
Actually, he says that Muhammad's "inner self"-- that is, is *real*
self-- now makes an appearance. Here is how Dashti puts it on page 81:

"With his thoughts fixed on the hereafter, he implored his Meccan
compatriots to revere the Lord of the Universe, and condemned
violence, injustice, hedonism, and neglect of the poor. Like Jesus, he
was full of compassion. After the move to Madina, however, he becomes
a relentless warrior, intent on spreading his religion by the sword,
and a scheming founder of state. ...A man who had lived for more than
twenty years with one wife became inordinately fond of women."

Well, what can I say to that? This is simply a repeat of standard
anti-Muslim bigoted takes on Muslim history. No attempt to place the
events in a full context (as would be needed for a psycho-social
analysis) no sense of broken treaties and genocidal aggression on the
part of the Quraish and their allies. Just the old standby: "religion
of the sword". Sure, its dressed up, but there it is!

It is with some horrid fascination we might recall Dashti's dismissal
of "the west's" religiously biased picture of Muhammad at the
beginning of his book, which I mentioned above. He asserts pretty
much the same thing!

According to Dashti, Muhammad now acts out of revenge for his bruised
ego:

"During his last ten years, which he spent at Madina, he was not the
same man as the Mohammad who for thirteen years had been preaching
humane compassion at Mecca. ...[he] reappeared in the garb of the
Prophet intent on subduing his own tribe and humbling the kinsmen who
for thirteen years had mocked him."

God forgive me, but what Dashti is saying here is that because
Muhammad was mocked, made fun of, called names-- now that he had power
he was going to go humiliate them for hurting his feelings.

Muhammad! The messenger from God! Acting like the kid everyone made
fun of in school, now a success, coming to the reunion for some cheap
revenge jollies.

You gotta be kidding.

I mean, I'm pretty easy, but even I'm completely offended by that. God
love Muhammad!

I am going to assume most readers-- Muslim and non-Muslim-- know that
this is not actually accepted by anyone other than anti-Muslim bigot
types. Muhammad was never aggressive or revengeful, nor did he have
much of an ego. He didn't change in Medina. Circumstances did.
Treaties were broken-- not by the Muslims. Genocidal mania was in the
land-- directed at the Muslims. The Muslims fought back as anyone
would.

Bizarrely, Dashti seems to have no sense here that Qur'anic ayat
always refer back to the historical situation. So, statements of war
are relevant only in light of the Muslims being under attack, while
those related to peace are-- surprise!-- relevant to times when
Muslims are not under attack. He doesn't show awareness of this.

So, a long post, and no more need be written.

Dashti is himself a product-- or should I say victim?-- of his own
times. His country was in upheaval. The socialist fantasy enticed
many. Inordinate exaltation of the Enlightenment ideal of the primacy
of reason seduced, and still seduces, many. Dashti's book exemplifies
both this fantasy and this seduction, such that he could no longer
even dimly apprehend The Transcendent Unity-- Allah Most High, and so
rejected The Truth. Trying to understand and bridge multiple world
views, he failed to truly enter either. Kind of sad.

I have to pray he declared shahada before he died, and his sins of
scholarship be forgiven.

But the book is lousy. Sorry.
Robert
2006-01-29 15:25:10 UTC
Permalink
I reply to glipg Jan 25

You say that Dashti's book appears to be a Marxist interpretation of
Muhammad's life, and state that Dashti was a Marxisr when he wrote the
book, but you produce no evidence to show this. The book is quite
evidently not a work of Marxist interpretation.

Dashti notes that Western scholars have remarked on the
unintelligibility of the Koran and on its standing in need of
interpretation - very odd in a work claimed to be the utterance of God
Almighty. It is no rebuttal of this charge that every human experience
needs interpretation; the point is that the Koran, in parts, does not
yield itself to the normal processes of interpretation of our
experience that we employ with no difficulty all the time.

Dashti notes the "aberrations of language" in the Koran and its crass
grammatical errors. Again it is no rebuttal of these observations to
point to the alleged profound impact of its language on contemporaries.
And where does the evidence of such impact come from? - 'traditions'
that were set down 150-300 years after Muhammad's death.
g***@clouded.com
2006-02-03 12:00:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert
I reply to glipg Jan 25
Then quote properly. Usenet is hardly new, and cut 'n quote is hardly
difficult.
Post by Robert
You say that Dashti's book appears to be a Marxist interpretation of
Muhammad's life,
Yes.

Though, to be more precise, "Marxist" as seen at the time of the
Leninist-Russian revolution. Marx's though is actually a bit more
involved than socialist-capitalist rhetoric would have one believe.
Post by Robert
and state that Dashti was a Marxisr when he wrote the
book, but you produce no evidence to show this.
Marxisr? ;-)

I clearly state I "assume" and I clearly state why I assume that in
the first paragraphs. You did read the first paragraphs, did you not?
Post by Robert
The book is quite
evidently not a work of Marxist interpretation.
Based on what?

I gave evidence why it is indeed a Marxist-Leninist interpretation.

That isn't saying such a thing is necessarily bad. It is acknowledging
that the Qur'an and Sunnah are living.... (I know, I know, Muslims
don't really like that idea... so sue me.)
Post by Robert
Dashti notes that Western scholars have remarked on the
unintelligibility of the Koran
The essay responds: rather, it is a *new* and *unique* form of
discourse, poetry, literature, scripture, communication...

"Art"-- as a concept-- must enter into any discourse regarding the
language of the Qur'an, imho.
Post by Robert
and on its standing in need of
interpretation
EVERYTHING the human experiences is "in need" of interpretation.

To say such a thing as a condemnation betrays a gross misunderstanding
of the human experience of reality.
Post by Robert
- very odd in a work claimed to be the utterance of God Almighty.
Not when understood as something "new" and "unique".

Because, after all, God *is* The Creative, The Unique.
Post by Robert
It is no rebuttal of this charge that every human experience
needs interpretation;
Y'can't have it both ways, bucky.
Post by Robert
the point is that the Koran, in parts, does not
yield itself to the normal processes of interpretation
If only I could swear here... I would say "w...t....f" are you talking
about???

DEFINE "normal" processes of interpretation, and then we'll play...
Post by Robert
Dashti notes the "aberrations of language" in the Koran
He does not "note"-- he "spins".

The Qur'an is Art of the highest order.

True art it rarely understood, or accepted in its time. I refer you
to, as an example, the initital response to Debussey's "La Mer". It
was panned. Now, it is considered a progressive masterpiece.

The Qur'an, in light of the Sunnah, is beyond that.

Have some imagination.
Post by Robert
and its crass
grammatical errors.
Read Finnigan's Wake, or Ulysses, or something....

Nima Rezai
2006-01-30 01:46:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@clouded.com
Since this book has come up as a topic, and I have read it, I thought,
insha Allah, I'd write my impressions.
Salam,

I enjoyed reading your analysis of Dashti which strongly resembles my own
perception of this book.
I want to ask you to please leave a recension on Amazon.
This really lousy book is praised by many, of whom I think a great part has
not even read it.

My own 2 cents:
I bought this books German translation because it had (has) become a kind of
anti-Muslims bible (along with Ibn Warraq).
Especially my fellow Iranians refer often to this book because Dashti was an
Iranian himself.
My intention was to read and refute the books content.
I came until page 110 or so, but due to the silliness of the author and the
lack of deptful research, combined
with his arrogant highly subjective assumptions being sold as "facts" I gave
up (for a while at least).

Most of all I noticed that Dashti dresses up his personal, mostly baseless
assumptions as known, proven "facts".
He does not bother to quote sources.
Occasionally he quotes 3rd class or even unknown narrators to refute some
islamic points of view.

The climax of absurdity is reached in the chapters "political murders" and
"treatment of prisoners of war". Many pages long, Dashti does not even quote
a single source while he raises his wildest allegations.

As you mentioned, he allows himself to ridicule Waqidi, Tabari, Ibn Ishaq
and others but quotes them or any possible Hadith when it suits him.

Best regards
Nima
Zuiko Azumazi
2006-01-25 14:00:10 UTC
Permalink
"Robert" <***@onetel.com> wrote in message news:***@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

<snip> ...
Post by Robert
Your charaterization of Dashti's work is absurd: he is evidently a
distinguished writer with a deserved international reputation.
<snip> ...

Comment:-
As a "straight thinker", I find these hypocritical comments somewhat absurd
when consistently in the past you indicated that other "distinguished
writers of deserved international reputation", like Bertrand Russell, as one
example, have been accused of "scurrilous" behaviour when criticising
Christianity, by yourself?

Are you trickily suggesting that other subscribers, Muslim or otherwise,
cannot voice an opinion (however valid) such as your own about critics of
Islam? Can't they use the infantile pejoratives like "smear" and "slur" that
appears regularly in some previous posts?

Notwithstanding, this isn't about "Ali Dashti's" works, per se, but your
dissimulative rejoinder, that exemplifies just another "crooked thinking"
inconsistency, emanating from yourself.

Nevertheless, the moral principle being, "people who honestly mean to be
true", as the signature shows.

--
Peace
--
People who honestly mean to be true really contradict themselves much more
rarely than those who try to be 'consistent'. [Oliver Wendell Holmes]

Zuiko Azumazi
***@hotmail.com
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