Discussion:
Tabari's account of Muhammad's embassy to Heraklius
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Yusuf B Gursey
2014-12-14 15:50:15 UTC
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Can anyone scan me the Arabic original of Tabari's account of the embassy of Muhammad to Heraclius? Or give me a published edition with volume and page numebr?

***@gmail.com
DKleinecke
2014-12-14 16:55:30 UTC
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Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Can anyone scan me the Arabic original of Tabari's account of the embassy of Muhammad to Heraclius? Or give me a published edition with volume and page numebr?
So far as I can tell al-Tabari's account of Muhammad's embassy to Heraclius is all from Ibn Ishaq. I can't help you with al-Tabari but you should be able to
find Ibn Ishaq in Arabic without any trouble. You can probably find what you want yourself but if you want I'll determine the pages for you in my copy of Ibn Ishaq.
Yusuf B Gursey
2014-12-16 17:28:40 UTC
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Ibn Hisham's version does not have it. I found it in Tabari in the chapter "Year 6" which was unexpected.
Post by DKleinecke
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Can anyone scan me the Arabic original of Tabari's account of the embassy of Muhammad to Heraclius? Or give me a published edition with volume and page numebr?
So far as I can tell al-Tabari's account of Muhammad's embassy to Heraclius is all from Ibn Ishaq. I can't help you with al-Tabari but you should be able to
find Ibn Ishaq in Arabic without any trouble. You can probably find what you want yourself but if you want I'll determine the pages for you in my copy of Ibn Ishaq.
DKleinecke
2014-12-17 18:07:32 UTC
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Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Ibn Hisham's version does not have it. I found it in Tabari in the chapter "Year 6" which was unexpected.
Post by DKleinecke
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Can anyone scan me the Arabic original of Tabari's account of the embassy of Muhammad to Heraclius? Or give me a published edition with volume and page numebr?
So far as I can tell al-Tabari's account of Muhammad's embassy to Heraclius is all from Ibn Ishaq. I can't help you with al-Tabari but you should be able to
find Ibn Ishaq in Arabic without any trouble. You can probably find what you want yourself but if you want I'll determine the pages for you in my copy of Ibn Ishaq.
I missed the little footnote on page 653 of my copy of Guillaume's translation and failed to look at the margin. My bad.

Ibn Ishaq's chronology unravels after the Conquest so I can't say what year he
placed the event in. In fact it is, in Guillaume, the letters are the last thing we are told about Rasul Allah before his death is described.

There are, of course, versions of what I think you are talking about - Abu Sufyan's interview with Heraclios - in al-Bukhari and Muslim and probably
elsewhere.
DKleinecke
2014-12-17 22:10:54 UTC
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=20
Ibn Hisham's version does not have it. I found it in Tabari in the chap=
ter "Year 6" which was unexpected.
=20
Can anyone scan me the Arabic original of Tabari's account of the e=
mbassy of Muhammad to Heraclius? Or give me a published edition with volume=
and page numebr?
=20
=20
So far as I can tell al-Tabari's account of Muhammad's embassy to Her=
aclius is all from Ibn Ishaq. I can't help you with al-Tabari but you shoul=
d be able to
find Ibn Ishaq in Arabic without any trouble. You can probably find w=
hat you want yourself but if you want I'll determine the pages for you in m=
y copy of Ibn Ishaq.
=20
I missed the little footnote on page 653 of my copy of Guillaume's transl=
ation and failed to look at the margin. My bad.
=20
Ibn Ishaq's chronology unravels after the Conquest so I can't say what ye=
ar he
placed the event in. In fact it is, in Guillaume, the letters are the las=
t thing we are told about Rasul Allah before his death is described.
=20
There are, of course, versions of what I think you are talking about - Ab=
u Sufyan's interview with Heraclios - in al-Bukhari and Muslim and probably
elsewhere.
I just noticed that there is a version in a book I just acquired. This is a=
translation and Arabic text of Ma'mar bn Rashid "The Expeditions". This is=
as early as Ibn Ishaq. I haven't cross-compared all these different versio=
ns but nearly as I remember they sare all the same. Ma'mar doesn't do chron=
ology but he puts Heraclios right after Hudaybiyah but I fear that is becau=
se both involve writing.
Yusuf B Gursey
2014-12-18 20:13:57 UTC
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Post by Yusuf B Gursey
On Sunday, December 14, 2014 8:00:03 AM UTC-8, Yusuf B Gursey wrote=
=3D20
Ibn Hisham's version does not have it. I found it in Tabari in the ch=
ap=3D
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
ter "Year 6" which was unexpected.
=3D20
Can anyone scan me the Arabic original of Tabari's account of the=
e=3D
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
mbassy of Muhammad to Heraclius? Or give me a published edition with volu=
me=3D
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
and page numebr?
=3D20
=3D20
So far as I can tell al-Tabari's account of Muhammad's embassy to H=
er=3D
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
aclius is all from Ibn Ishaq. I can't help you with al-Tabari but you sho=
ul=3D
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
d be able to
find Ibn Ishaq in Arabic without any trouble. You can probably find=
w=3D
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
hat you want yourself but if you want I'll determine the pages for you in=
m=3D
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
y copy of Ibn Ishaq.
=3D20
I missed the little footnote on page 653 of my copy of Guillaume's tran=
sl=3D
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
ation and failed to look at the margin. My bad.
=3D20
Ibn Ishaq's chronology unravels after the Conquest so I can't say what =
ye=3D
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
ar he
placed the event in. In fact it is, in Guillaume, the letters are the l=
as=3D
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
t thing we are told about Rasul Allah before his death is described.
=3D20
There are, of course, versions of what I think you are talking about - =
Ab=3D
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
u Sufyan's interview with Heraclios - in al-Bukhari and Muslim and probab=
ly
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
elsewhere.
=20
I just noticed that there is a version in a book I just acquired. This is=
a=3D
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
translation and Arabic text of Ma'mar bn Rashid "The Expeditions". This =
is=3D
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
as early as Ibn Ishaq. I haven't cross-compared all these different vers=
io=3D
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
ns but nearly as I remember they sare all the same. Ma'mar doesn't do chr=
on=3D
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
ology but he puts Heraclios right after Hudaybiyah but I fear that is bec=
au=3D
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
se both involve writing.
OK. Abu Sufyan is present as he pagan representative of Mecca, so yes. But =
historically there is only a 2 year window for Muhammad to have corresponde=
d with "Muqawqis" if the one accepts the identification with "The Caucasian=
" Melkite patriarch of Alexandria.
DKleinecke
2014-12-19 17:33:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
On Sunday, December 14, 2014 8:00:03 AM UTC-8, Yusuf B Gursey wrote=
=3D20
Ibn Hisham's version does not have it. I found it in Tabari in the ch=
ap=3D
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
ter "Year 6" which was unexpected.
=3D20
Can anyone scan me the Arabic original of Tabari's account of the=
e=3D
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
mbassy of Muhammad to Heraclius? Or give me a published edition with volu=
me=3D
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
and page numebr?
=3D20
=3D20
So far as I can tell al-Tabari's account of Muhammad's embassy to H=
er=3D
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
aclius is all from Ibn Ishaq. I can't help you with al-Tabari but you sho=
ul=3D
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
d be able to
find Ibn Ishaq in Arabic without any trouble. You can probably find=
w=3D
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
hat you want yourself but if you want I'll determine the pages for you in=
m=3D
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
y copy of Ibn Ishaq.
=3D20
I missed the little footnote on page 653 of my copy of Guillaume's tran=
sl=3D
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
ation and failed to look at the margin. My bad.
=3D20
Ibn Ishaq's chronology unravels after the Conquest so I can't say what =
ye=3D
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
ar he
placed the event in. In fact it is, in Guillaume, the letters are the l=
as=3D
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
t thing we are told about Rasul Allah before his death is described.
=3D20
There are, of course, versions of what I think you are talking about - =
Ab=3D
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
u Sufyan's interview with Heraclios - in al-Bukhari and Muslim and probab=
ly
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
elsewhere.
=20
I just noticed that there is a version in a book I just acquired. This is=
a=3D
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
translation and Arabic text of Ma'mar bn Rashid "The Expeditions". This =
is=3D
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
as early as Ibn Ishaq. I haven't cross-compared all these different vers=
io=3D
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
ns but nearly as I remember they sare all the same. Ma'mar doesn't do chr=
on=3D
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
ology but he puts Heraclios right after Hudaybiyah but I fear that is bec=
au=3D
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
se both involve writing.
OK. Abu Sufyan is present as he pagan representative of Mecca, so yes. But =
historically there is only a 2 year window for Muhammad to have corresponde=
d with "Muqawqis" if the one accepts the identification with "The Caucasian=
" Melkite patriarch of Alexandria.
I don't know what you are reaching for. It should be obvious from al_Tabari that the chronology of Rasul Allah's time in Madina was controversial. The
interview itself is highly unlikely to have actually happened - based on what we know about Heraclios. One guess would be that some other high-ranking Byzantine official was involved and story tellers upped him to Heraclios.

The letters are a different matter. They are not impossible but that they ever reached the rulers in question seems unlikely. We are told that nothing came of them except that now they had been warned and could be attacked with impunity.
It feels very much like ex post facto rationalization.
y***@gmail.com
2015-05-01 01:44:45 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by DKleinecke
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
On Sunday, December 14, 2014 8:00:03 AM UTC-8, Yusuf B Gursey wrote=
=3D20
Ibn Hisham's version does not have it. I found it in Tabari in the ch=
ap=3D ter "Year 6" which was unexpected. =3D20
Can anyone scan me the Arabic original of Tabari's account of the=
e=3D
mbassy of Muhammad to Heraclius? Or give me a published edition with volu=
me=3D and page numebr?
=3D20
=3D20
So far as I can tell al-Tabari's account of Muhammad's embassy to H=
er=3D
aclius is all from Ibn Ishaq. I can't help you with al-Tabari but you sho=
ul=3D d be able to
find Ibn Ishaq in Arabic without any trouble. You can probably find=
w=3D
hat you want yourself but if you want I'll determine the pages for you in=
m=3D y copy of Ibn Ishaq.
=3D20
I missed the little footnote on page 653 of my copy of Guillaume's tran=
sl=3D ation and failed to look at the margin. My bad. =3D20
Ibn Ishaq's chronology unravels after the Conquest so I can't say what =
ye=3D ar he placed the event in. In fact it is, in Guillaume, the letters
are the l= as=3D t thing we are told about Rasul Allah before his death is
described. =3D20 There are, of course, versions of what I think you are
talking about - = Ab=3D
u Sufyan's interview with Heraclios - in al-Bukhari and Muslim and probab=
ly
elsewhere.
=20
I just noticed that there is a version in a book I just acquired. This is=
a=3D translation and Arabic text of Ma'mar bn Rashid "The Expeditions".
This = is=3D as early as Ibn Ishaq. I haven't cross-compared all these
different vers= io=3D ns but nearly as I remember they sare all the same.
Ma'mar doesn't do chr= on=3D ology but he puts Heraclios right after
Hudaybiyah but I fear that is bec= au=3D se both involve writing.
OK. Abu Sufyan is present as he pagan representative of Mecca, so yes. But =
historically there is only a 2 year window for Muhammad to have corresponde=
d with "Muqawqis" if the one accepts the identification with "The Caucasian=
" Melkite patriarch of Alexandria.
I don't know what you are reaching for. It should be obvious from al_Tabari
In the account (not the letter), which is certainly bogus, Muhammad
says he will take the portion "Syria" (su:riyyah)of al-Sham, "which is
the heart of al-Sham". I was researching the use of the name su:riyyah
in a Muslim context.
Post by DKleinecke
that the chronology of Rasul Allah's time in Madina was controversial. The
Well, 6 AH is no good for corresponding with Muqawqis, if the etymology
is "The Caucasian"
Post by DKleinecke
interview itself is highly unlikely to have actually happened - based on what
we know about Heraclios. One guess would be that some other high-ranking
Byzantine official was involved and story tellers upped him to Heraclios.
OK.
Post by DKleinecke
The letters are a different matter. They are not impossible but that they
ever reached the rulers in question seems unlikely. We are told that nothing
came of them except that now they had been warned and could be attacked with
The letter to the ruler of Oman worked, and amicable relations were
established with Ayssinia.
Post by DKleinecke
impunity. It feels very much like ex post facto rationalization.
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