Discussion:
What happens if ISIS (or whatever they call themselves now) survive?
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h***@yahoo.co.uk
2014-08-11 21:38:45 UTC
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First, apologies for my absence from here. It's been too many years.

The issue which has prompted this post is probably exercising the concern o=
f many Muslims worldwide - what to do when atrocities are enacted in the na=
me of Islam, and by a group who, on the face of it, may even stand a chance=
of setting up a permanent state of sorts in northern Iraq?

Personally I have hope that this group will eventually be defeated, but in =
the meantime it appears they are trying to set up the Caliphate in a truly =
Qur'anic manner (those of the book pay jizya and are protected, all others =
are not welcome), but the inevitable atrocities which go with war are happe=
ning as well.

Most of the commentators I have read do make a more nuanced reading of the =
situation, in particular because this appears to be as much a Sunni/Shia ba=
ttle as Sunni/rest of the world. It is encouraging that the western press i=
n particular appear to be less ignorant than, say, 30 years ago, when I hav=
e to say I was no better. It is also encouraging that Muslims in the area h=
ave been willing to identify with their Christian neighbours, often at thei=
r own peril. But in the final assessment this situation will need to be res=
olved, and a part of me wants to believe that the leaders of nations who su=
pport the different factions will at last understand that they can't just g=
et away with antagonising each other and attempting to undermine each other=
. Part of me knows that the current borders in the middle east are (to an e=
xtent at least) in the wrong places, and this is a major failure on the par=
t of former occupiers from Europe.

A few questions

* If ISIS do form a state and aren't crushed, should majority Muslim states=
recognise it (e.g. Pakistan, Singapore and so on)?
* Is the treatment of Christians around Mosul in line with Islamic teaching=
?
* Is the treatment of the Yazidis acceptable?
* How can those of us who want to live in peace with our neighbours respond=
to this seemingly intransigent and intolerant religious view without alien=
ating them at the same time?
* How do I respond, as a Christian, to those who denigrate Islam and Muslim=
s because of this?=20

In short my answers would be no, yes (ish), no, no idea, and with difficult=
y. The difficulty is not in the obvious response - that ISIS don't necessar=
ily represent Islam, but more in the fact that I can recognise much of what=
they are trying to do as being in the tradition and ancient practice of ce=
rtain Muslim groups. I don't really want to say they're simply misguided, o=
r that they haven't "grown up" somehow as Muslims. But at the same time I k=
now there are those who will use this to decry all religion and defame God'=
s purpose as a result. Are the Muslim readers here in a similar quandary?

All I can do is trust that God is sovereign and this will be resolved. Whet=
her mankind will be any wiser afterwards is sadly debatable.

"Blessed are the peacemakers...".

Peace and health to all,

Mike.
y***@gmail.com
2014-08-15 08:10:41 UTC
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Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
A few questions
* If ISIS do form a state and aren't crushed, should majority Muslim states=
recognise it (e.g. Pakistan, Singapore and so on)?
Singapore is only 15% Muslim (who are mostly Malays), definitely not a
Muslim state.

Only Pakistan had recognized the Taliban in Afghanistan, and that was
mostly because Pakistan feared its Afghan minority if Afghanistan were
leftist or Pashtun nationalist. So going with that precedent, I expect
the same non-recognition with the self styled state of ISIS.

As I said in another post, the religious minorities of Iraq survived
and even thrived under 1400 years of Muslim, so that should tell you
something about the anomaly that ISIS represents.

Reforms were done under the Ottoman Empire especially in regard to the
status of religious minorities and religious opinions (fatwas) were
passed that these were an acceptable adjustment to modern
circumstances.
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
* Is the treatment of Christians around Mosul in line with Islamic teaching=
?
* Is the treatment of the Yazidis acceptable?
What you are getting at is probably whether it is acceptable under
Muslim law to tolerate religions not mentioned in the Qur'an. This came
up in the Muslim conquest of Sind (roughly modern Pakistan) in 711 and
after when the Muslims encountered the population of Hindus and a
strong Buddhist minority. The view that was later embraced by at least
the Hanafi school (including most of Asian Muslims and most Turkic
peoples, the official understanding of the Saljuk and Ottoman Empires)
declared that "al-kufr wa:Hid" (all infidellity is the same) and hence
all religious groups deserved the same protection. At any rate the
Qur'anic understanding is that all religions derive from the distortion
of the primal monotheistic religion that Islam restores.

Yazidis are unfortunately an easy target to whip up hatred against.
They are isolated (they believe they are specially created and don't
propogate their faith though a group of Brits have taken it up in
London). They are also offended by the cursing of Satan by people of
other faiths. They believe that Satan has repented and is delegated by
God to run most wordly affairs as Malak Taus (The Peacock Angel, though
some historians think that this is a distortion of an Iranian word of
different meaning). I have been told that an Arab Christian - Yazidi
marriage in SE Turkey broke up over this issue. One of their heroes is
Yazid b. Muawiya, who was responsible for the killing of Hasan and
Husayn.

(Sorry if I have inadvertently misrepresented Yazidi beliefs, as they
tend to be secretive and there is little available on the subject)
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
* How can those of us who want to live in peace with our neighbours respond=
to this seemingly intransigent and intolerant religious view without alien=
ating them at the same time?
* How do I respond, as a Christian, to those who denigrate Islam and Muslim=
s because of this?=20
In short my answers would be no, yes (ish), no, no idea, and with difficult=
y. The difficulty is not in the obvious response - that ISIS don't necessar=
ily represent Islam, but more in the fact that I can recognise much of what=
they are trying to do as being in the tradition and ancient practice of ce=
rtain Muslim groups. I don't really want to say they're simply misguided, o=
r that they haven't "grown up" somehow as Muslims. But at the same time I k=
now there are those who will use this to decry all religion and defame God'=
s purpose as a result. Are the Muslim readers here in a similar quandary?
All I can do is trust that God is sovereign and this will be resolved. Whet=
her mankind will be any wiser afterwards is sadly debatable.
"Blessed are the peacemakers...".
Peace and health to all,
Mike.
DKleinecke
2014-08-15 17:28:38 UTC
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Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
The issue which has prompted this post is probably exercising
the concern of many Muslims worldwide - what to do when
atrocities are enacted in the name of Islam, and by a group who,
on the face of it, may even stand a chance of setting up a
permanent state of sorts in northern Iraq?
...
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
* If ISIS do form a state and aren't crushed, should majority Muslim states=
recognise it (e.g. Pakistan, Singapore and so on)?
It is my understanding that the basic stance of the
neo-Caliphate is that all other Islamic communities are
apostate and the situation is that of the riddah.

Hence they are, by choice, at war with everyone else. Even
if another nation were to recognize them they could not, in
terms of their own ideology, return that favor and recognize
the other nation.

...
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
* How do I respond, as a Christian, to those who denigrate
Islam and Muslims because of this?
Even some habitual Islamophobes seem to understand that this
is different. I have used statements like "This is as Islamic
as Hitler was Catholic". Dangerous ground but so far no one
as sprung to Hitler's defense.
y***@gmail.com
2014-08-16 00:10:24 UTC
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Post by DKleinecke
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
The issue which has prompted this post is probably exercising
the concern of many Muslims worldwide - what to do when
atrocities are enacted in the name of Islam, and by a group who,
on the face of it, may even stand a chance of setting up a
permanent state of sorts in northern Iraq?
...
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
* If ISIS do form a state and aren't crushed, should majority Muslim states=
recognise it (e.g. Pakistan, Singapore and so on)?
It is my understanding that the basic stance of the
neo-Caliphate is that all other Islamic communities are
apostate and the situation is that of the riddah.
That's why people call them "takfiris", meaning "those who declare
conventionally identified Muslims as infidels.
Post by DKleinecke
Hence they are, by choice, at war with everyone else. Even
if another nation were to recognize them they could not, in
terms of their own ideology, return that favor and recognize
the other nation.
Not only that. Al-Qaeda's objection to ISIS was that it wouldn't
cooperate with other jihadi groups in Syria and even executed (by
beheading) their commanders for blasphemy.
Post by DKleinecke
...
Post by h***@yahoo.co.uk
* How do I respond, as a Christian, to those who denigrate
Islam and Muslims because of this?
Even some habitual Islamophobes seem to understand that this
is different. I have used statements like "This is as Islamic
as Hitler was Catholic". Dangerous ground but so far no one
as sprung to Hitler's defense.
I have thought of saying "It's as if Franco or Pinochet declared
themselves Pope", which I think is more to the point.
Catherine Jefferson
2014-08-16 02:46:01 UTC
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Post by y***@gmail.com
Post by DKleinecke
Even some habitual Islamophobes seem to understand that this
Post by DKleinecke
is different. I have used statements like "This is as Islamic
as Hitler was Catholic". Dangerous ground but so far no one
as sprung to Hitler's defense.
I have thought of saying "It's as if Franco or Pinochet declared
themselves Pope", which I think is more to the point.
Agreed. But not as effective with a lot of westerners, who don't
understand just how evil the two of those men were. Hitler, they
understand. <wry grin>

Personally I have no greater issues with ISIS than I did with Al Qaeda
or any religious group (Muslim or otherwise) that believes it's OK to
kill people just for disagreeing with them. It is interesting to
realize that ISIS treated Al Qaeda just as Al Qaeda treats non-Muslims.
Those familiar with the history of Christianity in the late Middle Ages
and early Renaissance will recognize some strong similarities with
groups at that time that viewed themselves as ultra-Catholic and
executed not non-Christians, but fellow Catholics, as 'heretics" over
some trivial difference in a minor point of dogma. There have also been
other periods of similar nastiness among the Protestants and the
Orthodox, less known among most in the U.S. :/

IMHO willingness to kill other human beings who simply disagree with
your religious beliefs stems mostly from arrogant pride. Pride leads
people to think, not that God makes no mistakes, but that they cannot
have made any mistakes in understanding His will or His intentions.
Otherwise their awareness of their own fallibility would stop them from
this extreme evil, or perhaps the more extreme evil of trying to force
conversion by threat of killing. :/

Lord, have mercy!


Under His mercy,
--
Catherine Jefferson <***@ergosphere.net>
Blog/Personal: http://www.ergosphere.net
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