Discussion:
Ahmadiyya Caliphate
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David Amicus
2015-12-15 23:31:35 UTC
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In another thread the Caliphate was discussed. I have found a Muslim sect today that has Caliphs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadiyya_Caliphate
Catherine Jefferson
2015-12-16 01:08:37 UTC
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Post by David Amicus
In another thread the Caliphate was discussed. I have found a Muslim
sect today that has Caliphs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadiyya_Caliphate
<wince> I just *knew* you were trying to start a flamewar in here, David. ;)

The Ahmadis are not mainstream Muslims. They're a breakaway group that
was founded by a man named Mirza Ghulam Ahmad in 1889 in a small town
named Qadian in what today is Pakistan. Ahmad claimed to be the Mahdi,
a figure mentioned in various Hadith who is supposed to appear in the
end times before the Day of Judgement. Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims have
wildly differing views of who and what the Mahdi is supposed to be, but
neither group agrees with the Ahmadis.

That's as far as I will wade into *that* argument. ;)
Post by David Amicus
From where I sit, the Ahmadis are in much the same position regarding
mainstream Islam as the Mormons (Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter
Day Saints/LDS) are regarding mainstream Christianity. Both groups
clearly stem from the parent religions, but their belief systems have
diverged enough from the parent religions that many people consider them
to be not Islamic or Christian, but new religions.

So your question, as well intended as I'm sure it was, is likely to
offend many Muslims. It's as if a Muslim asked you or me (I'm an
Orthodox Christian) why Christians couldn't just recognize Joseph Smith
as a prophet, accept the Book of Mormon, and get rid of all the
divisions in Christianity. <wry grin> TL;DNR (Too long; didn't read)
was invented for the treatise that I would have to write to answer that
question and all the assumptions it makes.

I'll let Yusuf Gursey or another Muslim answer specific questions about
the Caliphate, etc.
--
Catherine Jefferson <***@ergosphere.net>
Blog/Personal: http://www.ergosphere.net
David Amicus
2015-12-16 01:12:20 UTC
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Post by Catherine Jefferson
Post by David Amicus
In another thread the Caliphate was discussed. I have found a Muslim
sect today that has Caliphs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadiyya_Caliphate
<wince> I just *knew* you were trying to start a flamewar in here, David. ;)
The Ahmadis are not mainstream Muslims. They're a breakaway group that
was founded by a man named Mirza Ghulam Ahmad in 1889 in a small town
named Qadian in what today is Pakistan. Ahmad claimed to be the Mahdi,
a figure mentioned in various Hadith who is supposed to appear in the
end times before the Day of Judgement. Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims have
wildly differing views of who and what the Mahdi is supposed to be, but
neither group agrees with the Ahmadis.
That's as far as I will wade into *that* argument. ;)
Post by David Amicus
From where I sit, the Ahmadis are in much the same position regarding
mainstream Islam as the Mormons (Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter
Day Saints/LDS) are regarding mainstream Christianity. Both groups
clearly stem from the parent religions, but their belief systems have
diverged enough from the parent religions that many people consider them
to be not Islamic or Christian, but new religions.
So your question, as well intended as I'm sure it was, is likely to
offend many Muslims. It's as if a Muslim asked you or me (I'm an
Orthodox Christian) why Christians couldn't just recognize Joseph Smith
as a prophet, accept the Book of Mormon, and get rid of all the
divisions in Christianity. <wry grin> TL;DNR (Too long; didn't read)
was invented for the treatise that I would have to write to answer that
question and all the assumptions it makes.
I'll let Yusuf Gursey or another Muslim answer specific questions about
the Caliphate, etc.
--
Blog/Personal: http://www.ergosphere.net
My apologies. No offense was intended.
Yusuf B Gursey
2015-12-16 13:39:02 UTC
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On Wednesday, December 16, 2015 at 3:10:03 AM UTC+2, Catherine Jefferson wr=
Post by David Amicus
In another thread the Caliphate was discussed. I have found a Muslim
sect today that has Caliphs.
=20
Notice the title is Khalifat-ul-Masih i.e. Caliph (Successor) of the Messia=
h not Khalifati Rasulillah Caliph of the Messenger of God born by most Cali=
phs or claimants. (In the early period, some used Khalifatullah, Caliph of =
God, but this was later considered presumptious).=20
Post by David Amicus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadiyya_Caliphate
=20
<wince> I just *knew* you were trying to start a flamewar in here, David.=
;)
=20
The Ahmadis are not mainstream Muslims. They're a breakaway group that
was founded by a man named Mirza Ghulam Ahmad in 1889 in a small town
named Qadian in what today is Pakistan. Ahmad claimed to be the Mahdi,
That is not what is so controversial. Most Ahmadi's claim that he was also =
a prophet and that it is a type of prohethood that according them is possib=
le after Muhammad. The Mahdiyya sect in Sudan also recogizes someone as hav=
ing been Mahdi, Muhammad Ahmad, who lead a revolt in Sudan in the 19th cent=
. (depicted in the film "Khartoum"). Their present day followers had become=
a major politcal force in Sudan during the past decades (not so it seems c=
urrently). =20

The minorty Ahmadi movement represented by the Lahore Ahamdi Concil does no=
t recognize the claim of prophethood nor the "Ahmadi Caliph"
a figure mentioned in various Hadith who is supposed to appear in the
end times before the Day of Judgement. Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims have
wildly differing views of who and what the Mahdi is supposed to be, but
neither group agrees with the Ahmadis.
=20
That's as far as I will wade into *that* argument. ;)
=20
Post by David Amicus
From where I sit, the Ahmadis are in much the same position regarding
mainstream Islam as the Mormons (Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter
Day Saints/LDS) are regarding mainstream Christianity. Both groups
A good analogy.=20
clearly stem from the parent religions, but their belief systems have
diverged enough from the parent religions that many people consider them
to be not Islamic or Christian, but new religions.
Ahmadis (except those following the Lahore Ahmadi Movement) are not conside=
red Muslims by the government of Pakistan (enacted 1974) but are conisdered=
so by most other states.

Another group over which there has been controversy are the Druze who have =
a book of the teachings of the controversial Fatimid Caliph which some clai=
m is supplanting the Qur'an but whihc the Druze deny. The Druze are not con=
sidered Muslims in Israel and have been given privilages but are considered=
Muslims, with sectarian status, in Lebanon and Syria. =20
=20
So your question, as well intended as I'm sure it was, is likely to
offend many Muslims. It's as if a Muslim asked you or me (I'm an
Orthodox Christian) why Christians couldn't just recognize Joseph Smith
as a prophet, accept the Book of Mormon, and get rid of all the
divisions in Christianity. <wry grin> TL;DNR (Too long; didn't read)
was invented for the treatise that I would have to write to answer that
question and all the assumptions it makes.
=20
I'll let Yusuf Gursey or another Muslim answer specific questions about
the Caliphate, etc.
=20
=20
--=20
Blog/Personal: http://www.ergosphere.net
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