Discussion:
Muhammad is NOT mentioned in the Bible by name.
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1***@gmail.com
2014-07-06 10:22:53 UTC
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Dear all,
"Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find
mentioned in their own (Scriptures) - in the Law and the gospel..." (7:157)
Many Muslims make the claim that Muhammad is mentioned by name in Song of
Solomon 5:16. Please allow me to quote from a Muslim website that neatly
"In fact his [Muhammad's] name is in the Bible. In the Song of Solomon,
chapter 5, verse 16, the name Muhammad is mentioned in the Hebrew version.
But most people are unaware of this because they do not read the Bible in
its original languages. When they find a translation of the Prophet's name
in their Bibles they do not recognize it since it does not look like a name
anymore. For example, where the Hebrew Bible says, "He is Muhammad," the
King James Version has it translated as "He is altogether lovely" (Song of
Solomon 5:16). Thus the name escapes readers of the English versions."
If there are any reasonable Muslims out there who do not think that Song of
Solomon 5:16 is a reference to Muhammad then please let me know. The
Muslims I speak to keep making this claim.
"...wa-kul-lo ma-ha-ma-dim"
This gets translated (in todays Bibles) as...
"...yea, he is altogether lovely." (KJV)
"...and he is altogether desirable." (NRSV)
"...he is altogether lovely." (NIV)
"...and he is wholly desirable." (NAS)
It is translated thus simply because the hebrew word "mah-mad" means
"desire, desirable thing."
Our Muslim friend translates "...wa-kul-lo ma-ha-ma-dim" as...
"He is Muhammad"
Firstly, our Muslim friend has missed off the "...wa-kul-lo..." which means
"...and all
of him (is)..." - this is a minor point.
Secondly, the word in question ("ma-ha-ma-dim") is plural and not singular
(note the "im" ending). As far as I am aware this rules out "ma-ha-ma-dim"
being a personal name. I am not aware of any prophet's personal name (e.g.
Abraham, Isaac, Jacob) being written in the OT with a plural ending.
However, it is perfectly acceptable in Hebrew gramma to render the adjective
"mah-mad" in its plural form "ma-ha-ma-dim." So which is it? Yes. The
Bible translaters have got it right haven't they.
What makes Muslims think that this passage has any significance for them
anyway? It is little more that the physical description of a man through
the eyes of a woman in love (his lover). Do you really think any Jew would
have thought this passage a prophetic reference to Muhammad?
Muslims are not showing respect for the Bible when they come out with claims
like this one. They are doing nothing more than reading into the text what
they wish was there.
God's blessings in Jesus,
James.
Israelite used Isaiah 41 as guidance of where the servant will appear and they settled in Arabia, some North of Mecca, some south of Mecca. And used Isaiah 42 to match the description of the prophet.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/227601578/Servant-of-God-From-the-East
Zev
2014-07-17 03:24:07 UTC
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Post by 1***@gmail.com
Israelite used Isaiah 41 as guidance of where the servant will appear and they settled in Arabia, some North of Mecca, some south of Mecca. And used Isaiah 42 to match the description of the prophet.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/227601578/Servant-of-God-From-the-East
There is no hint in the Bible of a Muhammad
as a prophet relevant to Jews.
There is no history of Christians or Jews
interpreting any part of the Bible in that way.
The site you mention is nonsense.
Zev
2014-08-11 21:39:01 UTC
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On Saturday, August 2, 2014 10:57 AM, Muhammad Ibrahim wrote:


On Thursday, 17 July 2014 03:30:02 UTC+1, Zev wrote:=20
On Thursday, 27 January 2000 16:00:00 UTC+8, James Dowdeswell wrote:=20
Israelite used Isaiah 41 as guidance of where the servant will appear and=
they settled in Arabia, some North of Mecca, some south of Mecca. And used=
Isaiah 42 to match the description of the prophet.=20
http://www.scribd.com/doc/ 227601578/Servant-of-God-From- the-East=20
Zev:
There is no hint in the Bible of a Muhammad=20
as a prophet relevant to Jews.=20
There is no history of Christians or Jews=20
interpreting any part of the Bible in that way.=20
The site you mention is nonsense.=20
=20
The following is a highly snipped response to my post.
Muhammad Ibrahim:=20
The idea, that the coming of Muhammad (pbuh) was foretold in the Bible, is =
prevalent in Muslims that study or are interested in the field of comparati=
ve religion. In this article I will try to provide a snap analysis of the c=
laim through Biblical and Islamic sources.
Moses (pbuh) according to the Bible relates a message from God to his peopl=
e "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee=
..." (Deuteronomy 18). The prophet being related to by Moses in this passa=
ge by Jews and Christians through inner religious reasoning is commonly tho=
ught to be David (pbuh) or Jesus (pbuh) respectively. The prophecy in the p=
assage sets two clear conditions (1) the prophet must be from the brethren =
of the Jews and (2) he will be like Moses.

The following is my response to Muhammad Ibrahim:=20
There may be an apocryphal mention of David here
but Deuteronomy 18, as indeed so much of Deuteronomy,
is an attempt by Moses to prepare the people
for an independent national life in Canaan.
Verses 14-15, paraphrased, say:
The other nations turn to soothsayers
and such when they need advice
but you, when you need advice,
I shall send you a prophet.
The Bible mentions many people
who are called or seem to be, 'prophets'.
This is inarguable.
These verses seem to be referring to them,
not to *one* special prophet in the distant future,
about whose mission nothing is said.
There is nothing in the entire chapter
to indicate that it's talking about a
particular event, a particular time period.
Is verse 14 talking about a particular time period?
Verse 15 isn't either.
That's why they're juxtaposed.

Let's go back to the scene of Deut. 18:18.
Moses knows his own end is near,
he knows how much trouble his people have been to him,
he knows what they are liable to do in his absence.
He knows they need religious leadership.
God reassures him and them,
telling him that he will send them prophets,
people who know them, speak their language, live with them,
understand their mentality, love them like brothers etc...

What exactly does "brothers" mean in Deuteronomy 18?
Look closely at Deuteronomy 18:15.
The phrase here is "...from the midst of you, from your brothers....."
Can "from the midst of you" (mikirb'kha)
be referring to non-Israelites?
Look at Deuteronomy 18:18.
Can "from among their brothers" (mikerev akhahem)
mean "from themselves", *and/or*
from their non-Israelite "brothers"?

Notice the "KRB" root, occurring four times
(including Deuteronomy 17:15).
Does it seem to tie these four verses together,
implying that just as it means
"among the Children of Israel" once,
so does it mean that, the other three times also?

Can you see the repetition here, in various forms,
in order to positively reject
just the proposition you are making, implicitly,
that non-Israelites are included?

Your comparisons of Jesus and Muhammad to Moses are irrelevant. Character i=
s important in a prophet, not marriage and children, etc...
And your comparisons create a problem. What if in Jesus' time, Jesus appear=
s to compare well to Moses. Then some time later someone else comes around =
who appears to compare better to Moses. Are Jesus' followers supposed to a=
bandon their beliefs and follow someone else? And what if someone else come=
s later who compares even better? And what if one compares well in certain =
things, and the other compares well in others, how do we choose?

The Biblical Author knew impostors would someday appear,
who would arrogate to themselves rights not allotted to them.
Deuteronomy 18 is a warning,
meant to be understood by anyone
who seeks God's word as brought to us by Moses,
and preserved by his followers.

I can also explain why it's given in this
obvious (for some) - cryptic (for others) form.

God made a promise to Abraham that Ishmael's
descendants would become a great nation.
2500 years later he had still not fulfilled his promise.
One of the reasons for the delay was that he didn't want
the fulfilling of a promise to Abraham
to result in the expansion of paganism.

Muhammad, like many others of his time,
had lost faith in Paganism,
but he didn't like Christianity or Judaism
because of their foreign 'flavor'.
He wanted something an Arabian could take pride in as his own.
Muhammad talked to someone, got some ideas.
Talked to someone else, got some more ideas.
Over time, he developed them into something new.

We know that in Muhammad's time,
the first good prospects for conversion to Islam
were among those who were already monotheists,
and that many of these did accept Islam,
in one way or another.
Also, these are the monotheisms which pagan Arabs
had already recognized, even if they hadn't accepted them.
Staying on the beaten path would make it easier
for them to accept Islam.

But Judaism and Christianity are more than just monotheism.
So what to do?
Well, put into the new religion some of their important beliefs
without having so much that it becomes just a branch
of those religions.
Even today, Muslims say they honor
the Jewish and Christian prophets even more
than they (Christians & Jews) do.
This is just the idea I'm getting at.

Also, early monotheistic converts brought with them
many ideas and customs from their previous religion,
just as they brought with them skewed qiblas
as their churches and synagogues became mosques.

This was the time for the fulfillment of the ancient promise!

I can even accept that at critical junctures,
he had divine inspiration to help him get over hurdles.
He was charismatic, intelligent, motivated,
and sometimes rightly guided, but he was not a prophet.
The Quran contains many words of wisdom,
but it is not an angelic dictation of God's words.

Why isn't Muhammad hinted to, in the Bible, in a way in which
learned Christians and Jews would catch?
Well, praise wouldn't be warranted because of his faults,
and since God was using him as a tool
in fulfilling his promise to Abraham,
he couldn't be insulted either.
So he was just left out, or perhaps hinted to
only in unconvincing ways.

=20
The Quran quotes Muhammad as saying that
he didn't have to perform miracles
or predict the future, and therefore didn't,
while Deut. 18 makes it a legitimate demand.
You explain Deuteronomy 18 as referring to Muhammad but Muhammad explicitly=
excludes himself from a requirement of Deuteronomy 18!
=20
Isaiah 29:11-12 are not foretelling anything about anyone.
They are comparing a lost cause to giving a sealed book
to someone who knows how to read,
or an open book to someone who doesn't.
You can see this even more clearly if you start reading at verse 8:

Isaiah 29:8
It will be as when a hungry man dreams--
And behold, he is eating;
But when he awakens, his hunger is not satisfied,
Or as when a thirsty man dreams--
And behold, he is drinking,
But when he awakens, behold, he is faint
And his thirst is not quenched.
Thus the multitude of all the nations will be
Who wage war against Mount Zion.

Is this really the context in which you want to find Muhammad?
1***@gmail.com
2014-10-12 12:57:45 UTC
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[[...The prophecy in the p=3D=20
assage sets two clear conditions (1) the prophet must be from the brethren =
=3D=20
of the Jews and (2) he will be like Moses...]]=20

what does brethren means? And East (in Isaiah 41) is reference to location =
of decendants of Ishmael. Whom later as prophesied, the Children of Ishmael=
will spread God's praise throughout the world (in Isaiah 42:10-12)

~~~
[[Muhammad, like many others of his time,=20
had lost faith in Paganism,=20
but he didn't like Christianity or Judaism=20
because of their foreign 'flavor'.=20
He wanted something an Arabian could take pride in as his own.=20
Muhammad talked to someone, got some ideas.=20
Talked to someone else, got some more ideas.=20
Over time, he developed them into something new. ]]

Problem with such accusation is that, it was the Israelites that invited th=
e prophet to govern their town. Why was this? The reason is simple, because=
prophet Muhammad (pbuh) befits the description of God's servant coming fro=
m the East to spread faith about one God for the world.

~~~
[[Why isn't Muhammad hinted to, in the Bible, in a way in which=20
learned Christians and Jews would catch? ]]=20

You need to diffrentiate Ahlul Kitab and Roman Christians first to understa=
nd what was happening in Arabia at that time. Thus are you sure roman Chris=
tians being learned ones since they are using books that support doctrine o=
f a man name Paul a Helenistic Jew, that came from modern-day Turkey.

~~~
[[The Quran quotes Muhammad as saying that=20
he didn't have to perform miracles=20
or predict the future, and therefore didn't,=20
while Deut. 18 makes it a legitimate demand.]]

No prophets can know about future unless Holy Spirit by the command of Almi=
gty God , upon permission shall transmit the knowledge unto them prophets.

~~~

[[The Biblical Author knew impostors would someday appear,
who would arrogate to themselves rights not allotted to them.
Deuteronomy 18 is a warning,
meant to be understood by anyone
who seeks God's word as brought to us by Moses,
and preserved by his followers.]]

God have reminded Israelites (in Deut 13) about impostors that will bring f=
alse religion never been heard before, for example Triune Oneness God. (som=
ething new and unheard). It cannot be idol gods as such god had existed dur=
ing the time of Abraham (pbuh).

Thus learned Israelites were always aware of such reminder from God. The re=
ligion of prophet Muhammad is the same religion brought by Moses, Abraham, =
Noah (pbuh) about submitting to one God only.
Zev
2014-11-18 04:06:19 UTC
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Post by 1***@gmail.com
what does brethren means?
In the entire Bible, "brothers" of Israelites means other Israelites
or, sometimes, the descendants of Esau, who was indeed Jacob's brother.
In my post, I showed that in Deuteronomy 18
it couldn't mean anything but "other Israelites"
Post by 1***@gmail.com
Problem with such accusation is that, it was the Israelites that invited
the prophet to govern their town...
This story doesn't prove anything any more than the conversion of Muslims to
Christianity proves the superiority of Christianity.
And remember, Jews, living far from the centers of Jewish learning, might
easily be attracted to a religion with a theology and traditions similar to
and highly influenced by their own.
Post by 1***@gmail.com
Post by 1***@gmail.com
[[Why isn't Muhammad hinted to, in the Bible, in a way in which=20
learned Christians and Jews would catch? ]]=20
You need to diffrentiate Ahlul Kitab and Roman Christians first to
understand what was happening in Arabia at that time. Thus are you sure
roman Christians being learned ones since they are using books that
support doctrine of a man name Paul a Helenistic Jew, that came from
modern-day Turkey.
Not sure what you mean here. The "People of the Book" don't see Muhammad in
the Bible and never have.
Not sure what you mean by "Hellenistic Jew" either. Paul was the only
follower of Jesus with a Rabbinic background, and it shows. The parts of the
NT ascribed to him are noticeably different from the others.
Post by 1***@gmail.com
No prophets can know about future unless Holy Spirit by the command of
Almigty God , upon permission shall transmit the knowledge unto them
prophets.
Irrelevant.
Deuteronomy 18 makes proof obligatory if demanded. Muhammad scoffs it off.
Post by 1***@gmail.com
... The religion of prophet Muhammad is the same religion brought by
Moses, Abraham, Noah (pbuh) about submitting to one God only.
It's certainly different from Moses' Torah.

1***@gmail.com
2014-10-12 12:58:00 UTC
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Furthermore, whom do God favour to recite His praises on Mount Zion everyda=
y?? And you see many beliefs/nations are against them as they are favoured =
by God to praise Him on Mount Zion. And certainly they are not the Jews as =
God said Jews are the one blind and deaf as mentioned in Isaiah 42:17-25. O=
nly if the Jews can 'see' and return to the straight path and follow the fa=
voured group to recite His praise daily on Mount Zion as well.
Zev
2014-11-18 04:06:01 UTC
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Furthermore, whom do God favour to recite His praises on Mount Zion everyday??
Zechariah 8:22
So many peoples and mighty nations will come to seek
the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the LORD.'

And you see many beliefs/nations are against them as they are favoured =
by God to praise Him on Mount Zion. And certainly they are not the Jews as =
God said Jews are the one blind and deaf as mentioned in Isaiah 42:17-25. O=
nly if the Jews can 'see' and return to the straight path and follow the fa=
voured group to recite His praise daily on Mount Zion as well.
Zechariah 8:23. "Thus says the LORD of hosts,
`In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.""'
Zev
2014-11-18 04:05:25 UTC
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Only if the Jews can 'see' and ... recite His praise daily on Mount Zion as well.
Today, Muslims riot to prevent Jews from doing just that.
Go figure...
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