Discussion:
Ottoman Heir?
(too old to reply)
David Amicus
2015-11-15 21:14:29 UTC
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Who is the Ottoman heir today? And do any Muslims recognize him as the lawful Caliph (separate and apart from any claim he has as Sultan)?


If I remember right the Abbasid Caliph had fled to Egypt and when the Ottomans conquered Egypt the Abbasid Caliph abdicated and gave his rights to the Ottoman Sultan?

Are there any Abbasids today who could make a claim as Caliph? What about an Umayyad?

Apart from the four rightly guided Caliphs there have only been three legitimate dynasties that have held the Caliphate - Umayyad, Abbasid and Ottoman - right?
Yusuf B Gursey
2015-11-16 04:57:51 UTC
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Raw Message
Who is the Ottoman heir today? And do any Muslims recognize him as the=20
Bayezid Osman (Osmano=C4=9Flu) Osmano=C4=9Flu is the surname, as now requir=
ed.=20

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayezid_Osman

He is "the head of the family".

The last Ottoman Family member that was in the original official Imperial R=
egister was a princess who died in 2012.

All Ottoman family members have obtained the right to return to Turkey and =
had thier rights to Turkish citizenship restored a few decades ago.

BTW my high school chemistry teacher was second tier royalty. She was grand=
aughter of Murad V (and BTW daughter of WWI era strongman Enver Pasha who h=
ad the title of Imperial Son-in-Law - Damad). She was married to a Turkish =
diplomat. She had a golden monogram (tughra - presumeabely that of her gran=
dfather) as a necklace. I didn't know about her at first but I had remarked=
to my parents that "it was not something bought from the Covered Bazaar" a=
nd that "she really had a 'Fatih nose' if I ever saw one" (after the hooked=
nose of Mehmed the Conquerer - Fatih meaning "Conquerer")
lawful Caliph (separate and apart from any claim he has as Sultan)?
=20
I know that an Egyptian based Islamist group Hizbutahrir had the goal of re=
storing the caliphat under the previous heir Ertu=C4=9Frul Osman (Osmano=C4=
=9Flu) / Osman Ertu=C4=9Frul (Osmano=C4=9Flu) Osmanoglu is it has not come =
out correctly.
=20
If I remember right the Abbasid Caliph had fled to Egypt and when the=20
Ottomans conquered Egypt the Abbasid Caliph abdicated and gave his rights=
to the Ottoman Sultan?
That is what some later Ottoman chroniclers claimed. (Yavuz) Sultan Selim I=
(The Grim) seems to have grabbed it anyway.
=20
Are there any Abbasids today who could make a claim as Caliph? What=20
about an Umayyad?
=20
Dunno.

Towards the end of the Mongol Period, Sunni political theory was developing=
in the direction that any Muslim ruler could claim to be Caliph, so long a=
s he upheld Muslim law, provided protection and prefferably performed such =
functions as protecting the pilgrimage and the Holy Places. Theorists such =
as Ibn Khaldun stated that the condition of being from the tribe of Quraysh=
(that of the Prophet) was a weak one, and that if there was a non-Qurayshi=
who was otherwise better qualified, this would be prefferable. So even whe=
n there was a shadow Caliphate (without holding the throne) in Egypt, many =
Muslim rulers were flattering themselves with the title. When the Ottomans =
took up the title after occupying Egypt, their claim became the most credib=
le since they were the major Muslim and held control over Mecca and Madinah=
and the pilgrimage routes.
Apart from the four rightly guided Caliphs there have only been three=20
legitimate dynasties that have held the Caliphate - Umayyad, Abbasid and=
=20
Ottoman - right?
Well, there are the Alids. The Fatimids are an Alid (Ismaili Shiite) dynast=
y. The Agha Khan, head of the (Nizari) Ismailis (Assasins) are a banch from=
them. There is also a (Shiite) Zaydi Imam (formerly the King of Yemen) and=
an Ibadi (Kharijite) Imam in Oman.

The Kings of Morocco are Sunni Alids, and claim to be caliphs (Amir al-Mumi=
nin). Heads of Ismaili sects claim to be Caliphs,

When the Republic of Turkey abolished the Caliphate (the wording is "Office=
of the Caliphate"- Hilafet Makami), The King of the Hijaz (or as he claime=
d, "of the Arabs") the Sharif of Mecca, King Husayn claimed the Caliphate. =
That he obtained recognition from the last Sultan Vahiduddin (who didn't re=
cognize being stripped of the title and it being handed over to his cousin)=
is in dispute. However no one in the Muslim world recognzied this, as he w=
as too much associated with British interests and other rulers had their ow=
n ambitions. King Husayn was forced into exile and lost his kingdom altoget=
her by partisans of the Saudis. Conferences for the restoration of the Cali=
hate were held and it was decided that the Caliphate had not been handled p=
roeprly anyway, so the matter lapsed. These conferences eventually morphed =
into the Organization for Islamic Cooperation, a UN recognized internationa=
l body (the largets of it kind), which is what binds togther Muslims (Shiit=
es and others included) today.

BTW the Caliphate was not originally intended to be dynastic. It comes from=
recognition from a council. Even when succssion was a forgone conclusion, =
the Ottomans confirmed it by a ceremonial council, albeit made up of cronie=
s. BTW at a time of frequent palace coups, one sultan was still so jittery =
that he fast-tracked it by gathering unanounced whoever he coudl find in th=
e palace grounds.
Yusuf B Gursey
2015-11-16 07:43:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Who is the Ottoman heir today? And do any Muslims recognize him as the=
=3D20
=20
Bayezid Osman (Osmano=3DC4=3D9Flu) Osmano=3DC4=3D9Flu is the surname, as =
now requir=3D
ed.=3D20
=20
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayezid_Osman
=20
He is "the head of the family".
=20
The last Ottoman Family member that was in the original official Imperial=
R=3D
egister was a princess who died in 2012.
=20
All Ottoman family members have obtained the right to return to Turkey an=
d =3D
had thier rights to Turkish citizenship restored a few decades ago.
=20
No royalist movement in Turkey anymore, too many politician wanabees wantin=
g to get the same power by other means :)

Most dynasty members are just content to be consulted in the upkeep of tomb=
s and other such things.=20
BTW my high school chemistry teacher was second tier royalty. She was gra=
nd=3D
aughter of Murad V (and BTW daughter of WWI era strongman Enver Pasha who=
h=3D
ad the title of Imperial Son-in-Law - Damad). She was married to a Turkis=
h =3D

i.e. Enver Pasha married a princess.
diplomat. She had a golden monogram (tughra - presumeabely that of her gr=
an=3D
dfather) as a necklace. I didn't know about her at first but I had remark=
ed=3D
to my parents that "it was not something bought from the Covered Bazaar"=
a=3D
nd that "she really had a 'Fatih nose' if I ever saw one" (after the hook=
ed=3D
nose of Mehmed the Conquerer - Fatih meaning "Conquerer")
=20
lawful Caliph (separate and apart from any claim he has as Sultan)?
=3D20
=20
I know that an Egyptian based Islamist group Hizbutahrir had the goal of =
re=3D
storing the caliphat under the previous heir Ertu=3DC4=3D9Frul Osman (Osm=
ano=3DC4=3D
=3D9Flu) / Osman Ertu=3DC4=3D9Frul (Osmano=3DC4=3D9Flu) Osmanoglu is it h=
as not come =3D

and it's Ertugrul without diacritics. The confusion in the ordering is beca=
use among Turks the name you are known by doesn't always come first (in my =
case as well, I have another name that comes first I chose not to display i=
n the header for reasons of space).
out correctly.
=20
=3D20
If I remember right the Abbasid Caliph had fled to Egypt and when the=
=3D20
Ottomans conquered Egypt the Abbasid Caliph abdicated and gave his righ=
ts=3D
to the Ottoman Sultan?
=20
That is what some later Ottoman chroniclers claimed. (Yavuz) Sultan Selim=
I=3D
(The Grim) seems to have grabbed it anyway.
=20
=3D20
Are there any Abbasids today who could make a claim as Caliph? What=3D2=
0
about an Umayyad?
=3D20
=20
Dunno.
At any rate, without proper procedure and without the recognition from the =
general Muslim any claim is held to be invalid. This goes for the head of I=
SIL as well, who claims to be an Alid from Husayn b. Ali.
=20
Towards the end of the Mongol Period, Sunni political theory was developi=
ng=3D
in the direction that any Muslim ruler could claim to be Caliph, so long=
a=3D

The Caliph was supposed to name the sultans, devolving his duties to them, =
but by this time rulers were taking upon this title for themselves as well.=
Murad I of the Ottomans took upon the title of sultan, but it was his son =
Bayezid I who was granted the title by the Abbasid Caliph in Egypt. =20
s he upheld Muslim law, provided protection and prefferably performed suc=
h =3D
functions as protecting the pilgrimage and the Holy Places. Theorists suc=
h=20

This was also held to be true retroactively for the Umayyads and Abbasids a=
s well. They were held to be legitimate only as far as having perfomed the =
above duties, i.e. they were little more than sultanates.

=3D
as Ibn Khaldun stated that the condition of being from the tribe of Quray=
sh=3D
(that of the Prophet) was a weak one, and that if there was a non-Qurays=
hi=3D
who was otherwise better qualified, this would be prefferable. So even w=
he=3D
n there was a shadow Caliphate (without holding the throne) in Egypt, man=
y =3D
Muslim rulers were flattering themselves with the title. When the Ottoman=
s =3D
took up the title after occupying Egypt, their claim became the most cred=
ib=3D
le since they were the major Muslim and held control over Mecca and Madin=
ah=3D
and the pilgrimage routes.
=20
Apart from the four rightly guided Caliphs there have only been three=
=3D20
legitimate dynasties that have held the Caliphate - Umayyad, Abbasid an=
d=3D
=3D20
Ottoman - right?
=20
Well, there are the Alids. The Fatimids are an Alid (Ismaili Shiite) dyna=
st=3D
y. The Agha Khan, head of the (Nizari) Ismailis (Assasins) are a banch fr=
om=3D
them. There is also a (Shiite) Zaydi Imam (formerly the King of Yemen) a=
nd=3D
an Ibadi (Kharijite) Imam in Oman.
=20
The Kings of Morocco are Sunni Alids, and claim to be caliphs (Amir al-Mu=
mi=3D

I couldn't find out through whom, but also through his wife Fatimah.
nin). Heads of Ismaili sects claim to be Caliphs,
=20
When the Republic of Turkey abolished the Caliphate (the wording is "Offi=
ce=3D
of the Caliphate"- Hilafet Makami), The King of the Hijaz (or as he clai=
me=3D

i.e. not "The Caliphate", but the "Office of the Caliphate", a body that wa=
s within the jurisdication of the Grand National Assembly of Turkey.
d, "of the Arabs") the Sharif of Mecca, King Husayn claimed the Caliphate=
. =3D

As his title indicates, he was an Alid from Hasan b. Ali
That he obtained recognition from the last Sultan Vahiduddin (who didn't =
re=3D
cognize being stripped of the title and it being handed over to his cousi=
n)=3D
is in dispute. However no one in the Muslim world recognzied this, as he=
w=3D
as too much associated with British interests and other rulers had their =
ow=3D
n ambitions. King Husayn was forced into exile and lost his kingdom altog=
et=3D
her by partisans of the Saudis. Conferences for the restoration of the Ca=
li=3D
hate were held and it was decided that the Caliphate had not been handled=
p=3D
roeprly anyway, so the matter lapsed. These conferences eventually morphe=
d =3D

Basically the concensus was that the Calipahet had lost its original meanin=
g a long time ago and was handled improperly anyway.=20
into the Organization for Islamic Cooperation, a UN recognized internatio=
na=3D
l body (the largets of it kind), which is what binds togther Muslims (Shi=
it=3D
es and others included) today.
=20
BTW the Caliphate was not originally intended to be dynastic. It comes fr=
om=3D
recognition from a council. Even when succssion was a forgone conclusion=
, =3D

This, and recognition from the general community, was bypassed by Muawiya I=
when he named his son Yazid I as successor. Yazid I subseuquently used for=
ce to legitimize his claim. This is regareded as the turning point in the c=
orruption of the institution and its becoming dynastic.
the Ottomans confirmed it by a ceremonial council, albeit made up of cron=
ie=3D
s. BTW at a time of frequent palace coups, one sultan was still so jitter=
y =3D
that he fast-tracked it by gathering unanounced whoever he coudl find in =
th=3D
e palace grounds.
DKleinecke
2015-11-16 19:44:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Amicus
Who is the Ottoman heir today? And do any Muslims recognize him as the lawful Caliph (separate and apart from any claim he has as Sultan)?
If I remember right the Abbasid Caliph had fled to Egypt and when the Ottomans conquered Egypt the Abbasid Caliph abdicated and gave his rights to the Ottoman Sultan?
Are there any Abbasids today who could make a claim as Caliph? What about an Umayyad?
Apart from the four rightly guided Caliphs there have only been three legitimate dynasties that have held the Caliphate - Umayyad, Abbasid and Ottoman - right?
It is my understandin that the first Muslim ruler to use the title
"Caliph" was Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan in around 80 AH.

Mu'awiya ibn Abu Sufyan calls himself "Commander of the Faithful" in
an inscription (dated 58 AH). This seems to have been the older title
of the ruler. We have no data on how the earlier rulers ("The Four
Rightly Guided Caliphs") styled themselves.
Yusuf B Gursey
2015-11-17 09:40:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by DKleinecke
Post by David Amicus
Who is the Ottoman heir today? And do any Muslims recognize him as the lawful Caliph (separate and apart from any claim he has as Sultan)?
If I remember right the Abbasid Caliph had fled to Egypt and when the Ottomans conquered Egypt the Abbasid Caliph abdicated and gave his rights to the Ottoman Sultan?
Are there any Abbasids today who could make a claim as Caliph? What about an Umayyad?
Apart from the four rightly guided Caliphs there have only been three legitimate dynasties that have held the Caliphate - Umayyad, Abbasid and Ottoman - right?
It is my understandin that the first Muslim ruler to use the title
"Caliph" was Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan in around 80 AH.
He "Caliph of God", i.e. "God's successor". xali:fatu~lla:h . In the Abbasid period it gradually gave way to "Caliph of the Apostle of God", "Successor of the Apostle of God".
Post by DKleinecke
Mu'awiya ibn Abu Sufyan calls himself "Commander of the Faithful" in
an inscription (dated 58 AH). This seems to have been the older title
of the ruler. We have no data on how the earlier rulers ("The Four
Rightly Guided Caliphs") styled themselves.
Curiously the two graffito mentioning Umar and Uthman after their deaths fail to use any titles.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/kuficsaud.html

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/uthman1.html
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