Discussion:
Ohligs opinion on Makkahs location
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w***@gmail.com
2013-10-26 12:27:47 UTC
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Assalamun Alaykum, I was just looking at some essays authored by Karl Heinz=
Ohlig (German Orientalist) and he was making an argument on the location o=
f Mecca during the reign of Abdul Malik by using a near contemporary source=
which Ohlig believes is the first reference to Makkah

"There is said that a Habdemale ('Abd al-malik) against a Habdella (ie' Abd=
ullah pulls) to field; latter had already fought his father "in Mecca (apud=
Maccam), Abraham's house, as they (the Ishmaelites) believe that, is betwe=
en Ur of the Chaldeans, and Carras, a city of Mesopotamia" (historia Gothor=
um, Wandalorum, Sueborum) This annex (Additamentum IV-V: Continuatio Byzant=
ina Arabica).=20

Has anybody got any evidence which could refute his theory that the locatio=
n for Makkah is in IRAQ. I think he had also denied the Prophets existence
DKleinecke
2013-10-26 18:32:56 UTC
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Assalamun Alaykum, I was just looking at some essays authored by Karl Hei=
nz=3D
Ohlig (German Orientalist) and he was making an argument on the location=
o=3D
f Mecca during the reign of Abdul Malik by using a near contemporary sour=
ce=3D
which Ohlig believes is the first reference to Makkah
=20
"There is said that a Habdemale ('Abd al-malik) against a Habdella (ie' A=
bd=3D
ullah pulls) to field; latter had already fought his father "in Mecca (ap=
ud=3D
Maccam), Abraham's house, as they (the Ishmaelites) believe that, is bet=
we=3D
en Ur of the Chaldeans, and Carras, a city of Mesopotamia" (historia Goth=
or=3D
um, Wandalorum, Sueborum) This annex (Additamentum IV-V: Continuatio Byza=
nt=3D
ina Arabica).=3D20
=20
Has anybody got any evidence which could refute his theory that the locat=
io=3D
n for Makkah is in IRAQ. I think he had also denied the Prophets existenc=
e

Ohlig is an extreme skeptic. (Anyone who denies the Prophet's existence is =
an extremist.) This does seem to be a reference to Mecca and, if contempora=
ry, does seem to be the oldest non-Islamic reference to Mecca. I believe th=
e first part of the passage is a clear reference to the Second Fitna which,=
as is well known, came to an end in Mecca. But, of course, the passage doe=
s not prove Mecca was in Iraq - only that the author thought it was. =20

I incline to the view that the author - having never heard of Mecca before =
- simply guessed it was in Iraq. The reference to Ur shows his idea of Iraq=
ian geography was none too good. It would help to identify Carras - if perc=
hance that is Cairo we can completely discount the alleged location. =20
DKleinecke
2013-10-27 16:58:10 UTC
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Post by DKleinecke
Assalamun Alaykum, I was just looking at some essays authored by Karl Hei=
nz=3D
Ohlig (German Orientalist) and he was making an argument on the location=
o=3D
f Mecca during the reign of Abdul Malik by using a near contemporary sour=
ce=3D
which Ohlig believes is the first reference to Makkah
=20
"There is said that a Habdemale ('Abd al-malik) against a Habdella (ie' A=
bd=3D
ullah pulls) to field; latter had already fought his father "in Mecca (ap=
ud=3D
Maccam), Abraham's house, as they (the Ishmaelites) believe that, is bet=
we=3D
en Ur of the Chaldeans, and Carras, a city of Mesopotamia" (historia Goth=
or=3D
um, Wandalorum, Sueborum) This annex (Additamentum IV-V: Continuatio Byza=
nt=3D
ina Arabica).=3D20
=20
Has anybody got any evidence which could refute his theory that the locat=
io=3D
n for Makkah is in IRAQ. I think he had also denied the Prophets existenc=
e
Ohlig is an extreme skeptic. (Anyone who denies the Prophet's existence is =
an extremist.) This does seem to be a reference to Mecca and, if contempora=
ry, does seem to be the oldest non-Islamic reference to Mecca. I believe th=
e first part of the passage is a clear reference to the Second Fitna which,=
as is well known, came to an end in Mecca. But, of course, the passage doe=
s not prove Mecca was in Iraq - only that the author thought it was. =20
I incline to the view that the author - having never heard of Mecca before =
- simply guessed it was in Iraq. The reference to Ur shows his idea of Iraq=
ian geography was none too good. It would help to identify Carras - if perc=
hance that is Cairo we can completely discount the alleged location. =20
A possible source of the confusion is a misunderstanding of some source - perhaps a poem - that compared Muhammad's departure from the city of the Quraysh (Carras) with Abraham's departure from the city of the Chaldeans,
w***@gmail.com
2013-10-31 01:51:57 UTC
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Salaam alaykum. Was there Any medieval zindiq who had questioned the islam=
ic history e.g. Muhammad existence or the Quran existence because this zind=
iq could support his point. I know ibn al rawandi and muhammad al warraq (m=
edieval skeptics) thought islamic history was a fabrication!
y***@gmail.com
2013-11-01 12:45:09 UTC
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Post by w***@gmail.com
Salaam alaykum. Was there Any medieval zindiq who had questioned the islam=
ic history e.g. Muhammad existence or the Quran existence because this zind=
iq could support his point. I know ibn al rawandi and muhammad al warraq (m=
edieval skeptics) thought islamic history was a fabrication!
They questioned miracles, not the historicity of Muhammad or whatever
is meant by the existence of the Qur'an. Muhammad is mentioned very
early on Christian sources.
y***@gmail.com
2013-11-01 14:35:18 UTC
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Post by y***@gmail.com
Post by w***@gmail.com
Salaam alaykum. Was there Any medieval zindiq who had questioned the islam=
ic history e.g. Muhammad existence or the Quran existence because this zind=
iq could support his point. I know ibn al rawandi and muhammad al warraq (m=
edieval skeptics) thought islamic history was a fabrication!
They questioned miracles, not the historicity of Muhammad or whatever
is meant by the existence of the Qur'an. Muhammad is mentioned very
early on Christian sources.
They questioned the literary value and miraculous nature of the Qur'an.
DKleinecke
2013-11-01 18:11:18 UTC
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Post by y***@gmail.com
=20
=20
Salaam alaykum. Was there Any medieval zindiq who had questioned the =
islam=3D
Post by y***@gmail.com
=20
ic history e.g. Muhammad existence or the Quran existence because this=
zind=3D
Post by y***@gmail.com
=20
iq could support his point. I know ibn al rawandi and muhammad al warr=
aq (m=3D
Post by y***@gmail.com
=20
edieval skeptics) thought islamic history was a fabrication!
=20
=20
They questioned miracles, not the historicity of Muhammad or whatever=
=20
Post by y***@gmail.com
=20
is meant by the existence of the Qur'an. Muhammad is mentioned very=20
=20
early on Christian sources.
=20
=20
=20
They questioned the literary value and miraculous nature of the Qur'an.
Even if we had no (almost) contemporary notices of Muhammad it would be ten=
dentious to claim he never existed. That is, everything points to his exist=
ence and nothing points away. But it is possible to argue that all we can b=
e sure of is that he was a religious reformer in the Hijaz (maugre John Wan=
sborough) around 600 CE. To this fact we can add others - for example, it s=
eems clear that he was active in Yathrib (now Madina). But each step can be=
doubted and real confidence is hard to achieve.

w***@gmail.com
2013-10-31 01:52:37 UTC
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Just to clarify =C4=B1 don't agree with Ohlig, scholars I prefer are Fred D=
onner and Motski
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